Army Rumour Service

Register a free account today to join our community
Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site, connect with other members through your own private inbox and will receive smaller adverts!

Oh dear, so the GDR really wasn't nice then ?

MZ Motorbikes from east Germany were fun and reasonably reliable. As well as using one for my first commuter bike I once liberated one from outside the Irish Harp in Berlin while one of the VoPo's being retrained as a real German copper was making a twat of himself inside, though when I woke up in the morning it was gone from the street outside my at the time GF's flat in Neukölln, so I assume it was either recovered or stolen by the locals.
 
I would tend to disagree with your conclusion that the legality of the killings is open to question. In spite of them being carried out in the context of the GDR legal codex, which had declared "fleeing the republic" a crime, in my opinion they were clearly illegal, if only from a human rights perspective and despite other Eastern Bloc countries with borders to the West (Czechoslovakia, Hungary) operating a similar border policy.

I also can't really see how the number of cases makes any great difference. The Wessi judiciary initially investigated 30,000 former Stasi employees and actually ended up fining just a few of them, with one single person being sentenced to a prison term. The irony was that the fella who got the chokey was actually a West German. So, at least in my opinion, the number of cases was more representative of the fervent Wessi desire to involve/fit up/rope in as many East Germans as possible.

Your point with the GDR regime actually allowing the killings is also salient, although it's always been very selective. While the GDR was roundly condemned for the policy, other Eastern Bloc states weren't even mentioned. Also unmentioned were states with an alarmingly high incidence of state executions, for instance, the US and Saudi Arabia, that are regarded as "allies".

MsG

And none of them senior officers,...
 
I would tend to disagree with your conclusion that the legality of the killings is open to question. In spite of them being carried out in the context of the GDR legal codex, which had declared "fleeing the republic" a crime, in my opinion they were clearly illegal, if only from a human rights perspective and despite other Eastern Bloc countries with borders to the West (Czechoslovakia, Hungary) operating a similar border policy.

I also can't really see how the number of cases makes any great difference. The Wessi judiciary initially investigated 30,000 former Stasi employees and actually ended up fining just a few of them, with one single person being sentenced to a prison term. The irony was that the fella who got the chokey was actually a West German. So, at least in my opinion, the number of cases was more representative of the fervent Wessi desire to involve/fit up/rope in as many East Germans as possible.

Your point with the GDR regime actually allowing the killings is also salient, although it's always been very selective. While the GDR was roundly condemned for the policy, other Eastern Bloc states weren't even mentioned. Also unmentioned were states with an alarmingly high incidence of state executions, for instance, the US and Saudi Arabia, that are regarded as "allies".

MsG
Now, why would lawful state executions (tried, sentenced and executed) be mentioned in the context of state sanctioned murder (no trial, no sentence) of its citizens simply because they attempted to leave the People's Paradise?

Nothing like trying to muddy the waters eh Bugsy...
 
You expected maybe logic, nu?
Not from Pants O'Flame... no. Bugsy and logic are complete strangers and it is unlikely that the twain shall ever meet but...

... his rather poor attempts to deflect criticism of the People's Paradise should be challenged at every opportunity.

If I am very lucky he may call me 'CrappyNomark' and tell me that my inferiority complex is not his problem. Did you know he speaks German?
 
I would tend to disagree with your conclusion that the legality of the killings is open to question. In spite of them being carried out in the context of the GDR legal codex, which had declared "fleeing the republic" a crime, in my opinion they were clearly illegal, if only from a human rights perspective and despite other Eastern Bloc countries with borders to the West (Czechoslovakia, Hungary) operating a similar border policy.

I also can't really see how the number of cases makes any great difference. The Wessi judiciary initially investigated 30,000 former Stasi employees and actually ended up fining just a few of them, with one single person being sentenced to a prison term. The irony was that the fella who got the chokey was actually a West German. So, at least in my opinion, the number of cases was more representative of the fervent Wessi desire to involve/fit up/rope in as many East Germans as possible.

Your point with the GDR regime actually allowing the killings is also salient, although it's always been very selective. While the GDR was roundly condemned for the policy, other Eastern Bloc states weren't even mentioned. Also unmentioned were states with an alarmingly high incidence of state executions, for instance, the US and Saudi Arabia, that are regarded as "allies".

MsG

Bugsy you really can not have it both ways, you state that the GDR legal codex made it a crime to flee the country and allowed the killing of those who attempted to do so. That made the killings legal as the GDR as a de facto sovereign nation has a right to. You can not therefore say in your next sentence that they are clearly illegal. No problem with your distaste for the law being enacted but it was legal

I simply stated that the legality was in question as a number of cases had been brought before the courts, largely the courts dismissed the cases as the actions had been legal according to the GDR's laws at the time I believe.

You are correct to state that the GDR seemed to be singled out for criticism over the killings of those attempting to flee, the fact that other Eastern Block countries were not is probably more to do with the numbers involved and the use of what became a symbolic fence along the IGB.

Bringing up the fact that the USA and KSA has no relevance to Germany as far as I can see so why introduce it? All perfectly legal however distasteful it may be, and only carried out after due judicial process. Do remember that GDR only abolished the death penalty in 1987.
 
And none of them senior officers,...
It wasn't for the want of trying. Even stupid and farcical numbers such as these:
At the beginning of June 1992, Dr Karli Coburger was arrested. Dr Coburger was the former head of the Stasi Department VIII, responsible for observation, investigations and arrests. The very next day, the Berliner Kurier came out with the lurid headline: “Boss of Stasi killer team arrested”. Allegedly, Dr Coburger had commanded a contract-murder team consisting of 21 criminals in West Germany who had carried out more than 500 murders at the behest of the Stasi, for which more than two million Deutschmarks had been paid. It’s all very well to start the ball rolling with such dramatic revelations, but they have to be proved in court. And there was no evidence whatsoever, apart from hazy hearsay statements, idle gossip, vague unconfirmed reports and obscure, unsubstantiated rumours. Dr Coburger was acquitted.

Much the same very dubious method was used to accuse Dr Gerhard Neiber, the Deputy Minister for State Security, of various murders supposed to have been committed in the context of an alleged support function for the Red Army Faction in West Germany. He, too, was acquitted due to a complete lack of evidence.

MsG
 
coming from your good self that's bloody rich
Why do you state that? Don't let your ingrained prejudices guide you. I've always maintained that, in my opinion, the killings were illegal, regardless of any GDR laws. In particular Paragraph 27 of the GDR Border Law that states: The use of a weapon is allowed when no other method is available for the prevention of a crime or to protect and preserve life".

MsG
 
Why do you state that? Don't let your ingrained prejudices guide you. I've always maintained that, in my opinion, the killings were illegal, regardless of any GDR laws. In particular Paragraph 27 of the GDR Border Law that states: The use of a weapon is allowed when no other method is available for the prevention of a crime or to protect and preserve life".

MsG


A crime of trying to flee from a life of oppression?
 
It wasn't for the want of trying. Even stupid and farcical numbers such as these:


MsG
But do you not think that these very same senior officers that escaped prosecution would be the very same senior officers that would be in a position to destroy any evidence of a state sanctioned Schießbefehl ?

ETA: Interesting article.
 
But do you not think that these very same senior officers that escaped prosecution would be the very same senior officers that would be in a position to destroy any evidence of a state sanctioned Schießbefehl ?
The records of the Ministry of Defence, the Ministry of the Interior, the Peoples' Army HQ (of which the border guards were a regiment), the Border Guard Regment HQ, and the Military Intelligence Service were all recovered intact, since they'd had no orders to destroy them. Even if such an order existed and the Stasi had destroyed their copy, others would have been available elsewhere.

MsG
 
The records of the Ministry of Defence, the Ministry of the Interior, the Peoples' Army HQ (of which the border guards were a regiment), the Border Guard Regment HQ, and the Military Intelligence Service were all recovered intact, since they'd had no orders to destroy them. Even if such an order existed and the Stasi had destroyed their copy, others would have been available elsewhere.

MsG
However, Marianne Birthler, director of the government office that managed Stasi archives, said the order exists and proves that the top tier expected attempted runaways to be killed.
"The document is so important because the political leaders of the time continue to deny there was an order to shoot,"
 
Why do you state that? Don't let your ingrained prejudices guide you. I've always maintained that, in my opinion, the killings were illegal, regardless of any GDR laws. In particular Paragraph 27 of the GDR Border Law that states: The use of a weapon is allowed when no other method is available for the prevention of a crime or to protect and preserve life".

MsG

As opposed to your own ingrained prejudices . Bearing in mind the defences were apparently there to protect East Germany, the use of force to prevent Ossies from leaving would appear that East German regime frequently broke it's own law as the shoot to kill policy underlines. Now it might not have been politically expedient for the new German regime not to prosecute in the interest of harmony, it does not alter the fact that the state apparatus was as bent as the one that preceded it. One can't defend the indefensible . It doesn't alter the East German Government was imposed on the German people by a regime that was as bankrupt as the Nazi's
 
Top