Oh dear, so the GDR really wasn't nice then ?

There's a whole history involved there. Birthler's predecessor, Gauck (the later Federal Presiden), said exactly the same thing, as did her successor Jahn.

It's all very well giving it large gob-wise, but to date no-one has actually produced the goods. Ever since the fall of the Berlin Wall and the tidal wave of negative reports about "the evil GDR", everyone and her/his uncle has been desperately searching for the fabled "shoot-to-kill policy". With so much effort going into it, you'd think they'd have come up with something, but they haven't. What they've constantly kept producing is either what the Wessi judiciary hastily cobbled together to convict border-guard shooters (which actually entailed retrospectively annulling a number of GDR laws, believe it or not, at a time when the GDR no longer existed), or a private "order" typed by a border-guard sergeant, or other vague documents that in no way constitute a clear order and would be laughed out of any court. And all that at fairly regular intervals: 1992, 1995, 1999, 2003, 2005, 2007 and at various dates since.

The problem now is that they've "revealed" their "shoo-to-kill policy" so many times, that folks are understandably a bit sceptical about any new revelations.

MsG
So which is it, were Osti forces allowed to get away with random self appointed murders of fleeing citizens or was the state behind it? It must be one or the other.
 
You'll find Bugsy's fantasy life treats time and space like the Tardis
https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/t...modern-socialists.106016/page-15#post-2555363

He's lived the USSR as well y'know

And Poland, its what must have caused Lech Walesa to form Solidarnosc in a protest to get rid of the prat. HE also claims to a "trained Gymnast" (from his delusions of running the hod in the USA).
My word is there no trade/skill/profession or country this paragon of everything, (in its own fevered delusions) hasn't been or done. Christ it makes Baron Munchausen & Walter Mitty look modest.
 
So which is it, were Osti forces allowed to get away with random self appointed murders of fleeing citizens or was the state behind it? It must be one or the other.
Before you ask such reasonable questions you have to understand that factual reality is a very fluid entity with its very own set of rules in the fevered mind of Comrade Bugsy. What yesterday was 'unpossible' fiction, laughable for its absurdity could, and often does become today's reality.

Accordingly then, in Bugsy mind today, the shooting dead of 'escapees' was unlawful by virtue of no lawfully written and issued order to shoot escapees dead ever coming to light. Any/all would be escapees were to detained for their own safety, given tea and biscuits and a little friendly counselling before being sent home on the bus.

Tomorrow of course it may all change to the shooting dead of the ungrateful wannabe capitalist bastard escapees was a just and measured response by the benevolent state and a verbal order and or understanding of the state's will was perfectly adequate and no written order was necessary.

Bugsy's assertions almost always centre around a trivial, not easily verifiable point or statement. Desert Eagle for instance. We all know it is utter bollocks but not one of us can provide irrefutable proof that the silly old cunt made it up.
 
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DaManBugs

LE
Book Reviewer
So which is it, were Osti forces allowed to get away with random self appointed murders of fleeing citizens or was the state behind it? It must be one or the other.
Well, that's it. No-one actually knows, or can be clearly fingered. As strange as it may seem, I've a great interest in actually clearing up this mystery, because for me the killings at the border were never justified.

My own personal and very strong suspicion is that at some stage some minister (maybe from defence, although it wouldn't surprise me if it was that psycho Mielke) made an informal "nod-wink" suggestion to a very high-up border-guard Rupert that: "no-one will make much of a noise if these 'traitors to the cause' happen to die while attempting to cross the border", or words to that effect, pour encourager les autres, so to speak. However, I've practically no chance of ever actually proving that, absent some sort of "death-bed confession".

MsG
 
And Poland, its what must have caused Lech Walesa to form Solidarnosc in a protest to get rid of the prat. HE also claims to a "trained Gymnast" (from his delusions of running the hod in the USA).
My word is there no trade/skill/profession or country this paragon of everything, (in its own fevered delusions) hasn't been or done. Christ it makes Baron Munchausen & Walter Mitty look modest.
Seen in the local job centre... never:

HOD CARRIER wanted.
Good rates of pay for right applicant. Only Olympic Medal standard gymnasts with military parachuting experience need apply.
 

Helm

MIA
Book Reviewer
Well, that's it. No-one actually knows, or can be clearly fingered. As strange as it may seem, I've a great interest in actually clearing up this mystery, because for me the killings at the border were never justified.

My own personal and very strong suspicion is that at some stage some minister (maybe from defence, although it wouldn't surprise me if it was that psycho Mielke) made an informal "nod-wink" suggestion to a very high-up border-guard Rupert that: "no-one will make much of a noise if these 'traitors to the cause' happen to die while attempting to cross the border", or words to that effect, pour encourager les autres, so to speak. However, I've practically no chance of ever actually proving that, absent some sort of "death-bed confession".

MsG
Well you could always lie about it, an alien concept to you I know.
 
Well, that's it. No-one actually knows, or can be clearly fingered. As strange as it may seem, I've a great interest in actually clearing up this mystery, because for me the killings at the border were never justified.

My own personal and very strong suspicion is that at some stage some minister (maybe from defence, although it wouldn't surprise me if it was that psycho Mielke) made an informal "nod-wink" suggestion to a very high-up border-guard Rupert that: "no-one will make much of a noise if these 'traitors to the cause' happen to die while attempting to cross the border", or words to that effect, pour encourager les autres, so to speak. However, I've practically no chance of ever actually proving that, absent some sort of "death-bed confession".

MsG
Working towards the State?
 
Well, that's it. No-one actually knows, or can be clearly fingered. As strange as it may seem, I've a great interest in actually clearing up this mystery, because for me the killings at the border were never justified.

My own personal and very strong suspicion is that at some stage some minister (maybe from defence, although it wouldn't surprise me if it was that psycho Mielke) made an informal "nod-wink" suggestion to a very high-up border-guard Rupert that: "no-one will make much of a noise if these 'traitors to the cause' happen to die while attempting to cross the border", or words to that effect, pour encourager les autres, so to speak. However, I've practically no chance of ever actually proving that, absent some sort of "death-bed confession".

MsG

My bold.
I'm more than convinced that slimy cunt was responsible and probably had the order in his pocket when he fucked off to his masters in Moscow.
 
Paragraph 27 of the GDR Border Law that states: The use of a weapon is allowed when no other method is available for the prevention of a crime or to protect and preserve life".

MsG
What conceivable reason is there to shoot fleeing people in the back?

To protect them from being infected with freedom?
 

DaManBugs

LE
Book Reviewer
My bold.
I'm more than convinced that slimy **** was responsible and probably had the order in his pocket when he fucked off to his masters in Moscow.
That wouldn't surprise me, at least in the scenario I described in my last post. I'm not so sure about him fucking off with an actual, physical order though. If one existed, copies would have been found in any number of places, including the GDR MoD, Interior Ministry, NVA HQ and certainly at the Border-Guard Regiment HQ, but all of their documents were retrieved completely intact and contained no such order.

MsG
 
By their failure to stop the shooting of people attempting to leave the country indicates that the Government of the GDR was happy to allow it to continue, therefore there was a shoot to kill policy just not a written one.

Why was the IGB armed with automatic weapon systems, the procurement and deployment of these systems indicates thee was just such a policy.

May I suggest that when we tire of arguing over a question that we all know the answer to that we discuss the old favourite of "How many Angels can stand on the point of a pin"
 

DieHard

LE
Book Reviewer
What used to worry me about the DDR is the fact that there armed forces were as good as west Germany. I dont know if its true ir not but it was once mentioned that weapons to the DDR were kept to a minimum by the Soviets because they were still scared of any armed Germans, cant blame them really though.
 
And Poland, its what must have caused Lech Walesa to form Solidarnosc in a protest to get rid of the prat. HE also claims to a "trained Gymnast" (from his delusions of running the hod in the USA).
My word is there no trade/skill/profession or country this paragon of everything, (in its own fevered delusions) hasn't been or done. Christ it makes Baron Munchausen & Walter Mitty look modest.
He's not a good as he thinks he is, he lost a made up job in his fantasy life for being a penis.

References from prior employers
 
By their failure to stop the shooting of people attempting to leave the country indicates that the Government of the GDR was happy to allow it to continue, therefore there was a shoot to kill policy just not a written one.

Why was the IGB armed with automatic weapon systems, the procurement and deployment of these systems indicates thee was just such a policy.

May I suggest that when we tire of arguing over a question that we all know the answer to that we discuss the old favourite of "How many Angels can stand on the point of a pin"
Angels on a point of a pin? That depends both on the size of the angel and the size of the pin but as a rough guide, Bugsy with his remarkably steady eye and his training as an airborne hod carrier can stand up to fifteen Angels of the North on the point of a standard dressmaker's pin as long as the prevailing breeze is not greater than storm force ten.

Hope that helps..
 

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