Oh dear, so the GDR really wasn't nice then ?

DaManBugs

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I can't quote your post, @Lindermyer. A notice keeps coming up saying: "The requested post can't be found". I don't know why that is.

Anyway, this thread is about the GDR and not about how Mark Duggan was murdered.

[A direct quote from your post] GDR shoots people - investigates = Justified

The exclusively Wessi investigations of the border shooting were never justified. The shootings and arrests happened when the GDR was a sovereign nation. As such, the Wessis had no right or any legal jurisdiction to even prosecute. It was another shameful chapter in the Wessi unhinged and zealous fervour to comprehensively deligitimise the GDR in any way possible.

What happened was that the interim Modrow gobment arrested and charged large numbers of SED functionaries and their lackeys with corruption, fraud and all manner of other crimes. The investigations by the GDR authorities into those crimes, which included ensuring that no "friendly" verdicts were handed down, weren't finished by the time reunification came around. The newly elected GDR gobment of de Maziere then handed over those cases for further processing to the Wessi judicial authorities. That was their only narrow and focussed mandate.

What then happened was that the Wessis unilaterally enlarged that mandate to include any and all former SED party members, any and all former employees of the Stasi and any and all former members of the border guards.

MsG
 
Thank you and this does help to understand the Ostalgie of the older generation. It's easily understandable if you think of John Major's ode about old maids cycling by a cricket ground on a sit up and beg bicycle with a wicker basket on the way to church. That and the fact you could 'leave your doors unlocked at night' and 'everybody knew everybody else'.

I had a personal experience of a cobbled market square down Suhl way on a hot summer's day of an elderly German maid on one of those bikes with a wicker basket who waved at me in the car (window down) and said, 'Hello, Tommy'. She'd have been in her early 20s when that part of what became East Germany was taken by the US Army.

View attachment 327346
I'm sorry I can only accept a PRA map as proof. After all I printed enough of them!
 
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I'm sorry I can only accept a PRA map as proof. After aĺl I printed enough of them!

Hang on. Getting camera.

OK. 1984 PRA map with the additional changes made in 1986 post the shooting dead of Maj Nicholson.

DSC02541e.jpg
 
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" for I have worked on building sites; and not only in Ireland, but also in Germany, Italy and America."

Bloody hell, when and how does he find the time to do all the other stuff?
You know Doctor Who's TARDIS? Guess who invented it?
 
I can't quote your post, @Lindermyer. A notice keeps coming up saying: "The requested post can't be found". I don't know why that is.
MsG

Because I deleted it

I snipped to quote and then got distracted
I then completed the post with reference to the quoted section On posting and seeing the full text I realised in doing so id changed the whole posts context and that my post was attributing a claim that you hadn't made.

It was in fact completely at odds with your actual statement.
Rather than muddy waters I deleted it - Obviously not quick enough.

Edit - See this bit - border and at the Berlin Wall were without doubt killed illegally.

I had that down investigated and thus killed legally - hence the swipe about not accepting UK police supporting verdicts.
Whilst I dont agree with you viz the drug dealing gun toting scrote Duggan - The accusation of a double standard was unfounded .
 
Stunning fact - I may have pinched a PRA map when we closed down the unit back in 1992, and IF I did it might have been passed on to the Radar Museum at Neatishead a few years ago
I'm pretty sure they're not classified anymore.....but hand yourself in just in case.
 
Trooper, but that's not important now.........unless.........has anyone ever seen them together in the same room at the same time?
Case proven I think you'll find...
 
I can't quote your post, @Lindermyer. A notice keeps coming up saying: "The requested post can't be found". I don't know why that is.

Anyway, this thread is about the GDR and not about how Mark Duggan was murdered.

[A direct quote from your post] GDR shoots people - investigates = Justified

The exclusively Wessi investigations of the border shooting were never justified. The shootings and arrests happened when the GDR was a sovereign nation. As such, the Wessis had no right or any legal jurisdiction to even prosecute. It was another shameful chapter in the Wessi unhinged and zealous fervour to comprehensively deligitimise the GDR in any way possible.

What happened was that the interim Modrow gobment arrested and charged large numbers of SED functionaries and their lackeys with corruption, fraud and all manner of other crimes. The investigations by the GDR authorities into those crimes, which included ensuring that no "friendly" verdicts were handed down, weren't finished by the time reunification came around. The newly elected GDR gobment of de Maziere then handed over those cases for further processing to the Wessi judicial authorities. That was their only narrow and focussed mandate.

What then happened was that the Wessis unilaterally enlarged that mandate to include any and all former SED party members, any and all former employees of the Stasi and any and all former members of the border guards.

MsG
So what you're saying is...German law has seen to be done.
 
You know Doctor Who's TARDIS? Guess who invented it?
@tropper66... he invented time and then needed a means by which he could travel around time freely.

If Bugsy claimed to have invented the TARDIS he is clearly lying (who'd have thought it eh?) and he is about to be engulfed in a grubby Y Fronts inferno.
 
@tropper66... he invented time and then needed a means by which he could travel around time freely.

If Bugsy claimed to have invented the TARDIS he is clearly lying (who'd have thought it eh?) and he is about to be engulfed in a grubby Y Fronts inferno.
So you're saying Bugsy tells lies.
Have an informative.
 
Whether the was an official "shoot to kill" policy is to me irrelevant, a number of people were killed when trying to cross the IGB and or Berlin Wall. The legality of those killings is open to question as evidenced by the number of court cases has shown.

What is more worrying is that a nations Government saw fit to allow the killings at all.
 

DaManBugs

On ROPS
On ROPs
Book Reviewer
Whether the was an official "shoot to kill" policy is to me irrelevant, a number of people were killed when trying to cross the IGB and or Berlin Wall. The legality of those killings is open to question as evidenced by the number of court cases has shown.

What is more worrying is that a nations Government saw fit to allow the killings at all.
I would tend to disagree with your conclusion that the legality of the killings is open to question. In spite of them being carried out in the context of the GDR legal codex, which had declared "fleeing the republic" a crime, in my opinion they were clearly illegal, if only from a human rights perspective and despite other Eastern Bloc countries with borders to the West (Czechoslovakia, Hungary) operating a similar border policy.

I also can't really see how the number of cases makes any great difference. The Wessi judiciary initially investigated 30,000 former Stasi employees and actually ended up fining just a few of them, with one single person being sentenced to a prison term. The irony was that the fella who got the chokey was actually a West German. So, at least in my opinion, the number of cases was more representative of the fervent Wessi desire to involve/fit up/rope in as many East Germans as possible.

Your point with the GDR regime actually allowing the killings is also salient, although it's always been very selective. While the GDR was roundly condemned for the policy, other Eastern Bloc states weren't even mentioned. Also unmentioned were states with an alarmingly high incidence of state executions, for instance, the US and Saudi Arabia, that are regarded as "allies".

MsG
 
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