Oh dear, so the GDR really wasn't nice then ?

The fact that the revolution was bloodless is a credit to the East Germans, both in and out of uniform. The Soviets wisely kept out of it.
Al element of truth in both, The Russians had no means of responding. They were Bankrupt and the writing on the wall meant that there wasn't the energy to Bite the hand... What Yeltsin and Gorby got were time.
 
You express that as a definitive statement, RoofRat, and not as your personal opinion, or what you believe. You err.

Having been a member of BRIXMIS, you know far more about any "Erfolgsprämien" for successtully hindering the MLMs in their task than me. In fact, your informative post was the first time I'd ever heard (or read) about it. Although I can well imagine some pervert in the NVA coming up with an "incentive" like that.

Where you err is your firm conviction that there was clear shoot-to-kill policy on the GDR border. There never was. The Wessi state attorneys had unlimited access to national, local, NVA and other military documents. They spent 17 years desperately looking for such a clear shoot-to-kill order in order to further underline the barbaric nature of the GDR regime. Their very best efforts, in no small way supported by former NVA and Grenztruppen officers eager to curry favour with "the victors", all came to nothing. To this day no-one has ever produced anything even remotely resembling a clear "shoot-to-kill" order.

There's no doubt in my own mind that the border regime was totally barbaric. There's simply no excuse for applying "elastic" regulations that effectively allow border guards to take the lives of other humans, just because a nominally "Socialist" gobment declares the understandable wish to escape what folks perceive to be a suffocating political and social climate as a "crime".

But there's much more to it than the detached, Manichaean view obsessively punted by the (still West) German gobment, which is (even now): we Wessis - good! Anything remotely connected to the GDR - bad!. That simplistic and, in my opinion, deliberately biased perspective completely fails to take into account that the "Grenzer" themselves were conscripts (and also individuals), who invariably spent their whole 18-month military career on the GDR West border (for some strange, actually inexplicable, reason, the GDR borders to other Eastern Bloc states were largely manned by career squaddies - Zeitsoldaten).

Such conscripts on the GDR/West German border, while having no problems in the British sector, were subjected to some very bad abuse in the sector of the GDR/West German border manned/patrolled by the Septics. They had weapons pointed at them threateningly; faced quite clearly unhinged screaming at them: were pelted by the fanatical Septics with rocks, mud, fireworks - even practice grenades to make them flinch. Fortunately, those "Grenzer" kept their heads and dignity, didn't respond to such outrageous tactics and quite possibly prevented the advent of a catastrophic world war. How many wars have been kicked off by stupid border incidents?

I lived in Cottbus in East Germany for almost six years after the fall of the Berlin Wall. In all that time, I got to know, and became close friends with, many former "Grenzer". I won't say that it's anywhere near a representative survey, but all of those fine comrades, without exception and to a man, expressed their profound relief that they never had to aim, or even fire, their weapons at anyone attempting to escape the GDR. At the end of their service, they were absolutely over the moon that they could cut off the final centimetre of their "Maßband" (explanation available if required) and return to civvie life, safe in the knowledge that they'd not had to harm another human being.

MsG
There was never the will to prosecute by the German authorities, just as there were still members of the SS working for the government, who have never been prosecuted. Secondly you can only bring a prosecution if you have evidence, most of which would have been burnt within hours of the wall coming down, not shredded like the MfS.

As for your 'Grenzer' pals,not conscripts but, chosen for their alliegance to the Party/State (No Volunteers), knowing that when they finished their service, they could get easy access to many things, decent job, Uni place.

I too have been introduced to a number of ex-GT across Europe, smiling middle aged men and, my stock answer is to tell them to 'go away and perform an unatural act', scum doesn't come close.

Don't need an explanation on the "chuffchart", I've had them waved at me by real soldiers, who by the way didn't have a lot of time for the GT either.

I would suggest to you that, your mates in Cottbus, were never going to tell you that they were hardline Party followers, even if you asked.

I had time for everyone in the DDR, it was their country but, never the GT.
 
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It's good to see that in this ever-changing world, some things never change.

Bugsy telling lies, for example.
 
Do you think he actually believes the lies he tells or does he lie for effect?
Everyone needs a hobby but to lie so much and inconsistently would surely be the sign of a sick mind.

He might believe them but that doesn't prevent him from being a bog-trotting fuckwit.
 
Do you think he actually believes the lies he tells or does he lie for effect?
Now that is a really difficult question to answer...

Take the lie in which he claimed, 'four of his family had been shot dead by the army for instance. That lie was superseded by the lie in which five members of his family had been shot dead by the army but he didn't mind because the shooting arose from confusion and thus the army was not to blame.

Then he lied yet again when he subsequently claimed to have never ever said that the army shot his family dead.

Here we have varying and in the case of the last one, contradictory lies... which, if any, does he actually believe and which, if any are for effect?

There is a real danger of putting one's brain into a self destructive perpetual loop if one tries to unravel the workings of Bugsy's broken brain. He should be stamped with a government health warning along the lines of:

WARNING:
ANALYSING BUGSY O'LIAR WILL SERIOUSLY HARM YOUR MENTAL HEALTH
 
Now that is a really difficult question to answer...

Take the lie in which he claimed, 'four of his family had been shot dead by the army for instance. That lie was superseded by the lie in which five members of his family had been shot dead by the army but he didn't mind because the shooting arose from confusion and thus the army was not to blame.

Then he lied yet again when he subsequently claimed to have never ever said that the army shot his family dead.

Here we have varying and in the case of the last one, contradictory lies... which, if any, does he actually believe and which, if any are for effect?

There is a real danger of putting one's brain into a self destructive perpetual loop if one tries to unravel the workings of Bugsy's broken brain. He should be stamped with a government health warning along the lines of:

WARNING:
ANALYSING BUGSY O'LIAR WILL SERIOUSLY HARM YOUR MENTAL HEALTH
Zen and Bugsy's lies...
Albert Einstein is reported to have asked Niels Bohr whether he realistically believed that 'the moon does not exist if nobody is looking at it.' To this Bohr replied that however hard he may try, he would not be able to prove that it does, thus giving the entire riddle the status of a kind of an infallible conjecture one that cannot be either proved or disproved.
 
Do you think he actually believes the lies he tells or does he lie for effect?
The entire political system is full of liars who believe their lies-as such they are not lies merely a POV. The only essential difference is that in Germany's case, they lost-so everything must be a lie. Russia never lost except in the political sense-so it's not a lie. The standard is you can't prove it to the N'th degree, therefore the fingers might point, but that proves nothing. After all Magnetic North does move.
 
Zen and Bugsy's lies...
Albert Einstein is reported to have asked Niels Bohr whether he realistically believed that 'the moon does not exist if nobody is looking at it.' To this Bohr replied that however hard he may try, he would not be able to prove that it does, thus giving the entire riddle the status of a kind of an infallible conjecture one that cannot be either proved or disproved.
merely another version of did the tree make a noise when it fell:-D if no-one heard it.
 
Trivial things like:
  • being shot down in flames of ridicule for his comically inconsistent fables lies and his subsequent claims to 'I never said that'
  • being shot down in flames of ridicule for his comically inane and hopelessly inaccurate defence of GDR state oppression
  • being shot down in flames of ridicule for his comically example free assertions that socialism is the only way the world can survive and the SWP is the only organisation that lead us safely away from the apocalypse of a capitalist self destruction
  • being Nottingham's premier pigeon tamer
do not deter Bugsy in the slightest. He knows no shame and has no dignity. Attention is attention however it is attained and only an enforced holiday stops him in his tracks.

So yes, you are wrong. Sorry.

I'm amazed more people don't put the seriously deluded, to the point of certifiable insanity, creature on IGNORE as I do. There are no verifiable facts or arguments to change its lunacy, indeed the creature like most trolls thrives on the responses it gets. IMHO rather than waste hours looking at the posts to & from him and his opponents, it would make far more sense if everybody put it on ignore. The result would probably be a messy implosion of a nutter in Nottingham who could not see anything but a blank screen on the Arrse site.

 
You seek to deny us our pleasure sir?

Bugsy provides comical light entertainment, the like of which you'd never find on the BBC, for many of us on Arrse who are trapped inside our own less fanciful imaginations and lack of moral turpitude.

Stand aside sir, we will not be denied our pleasure (except for when the Duke sends him on enforced leaves of absence of course).
 
Zen and Bugsy's lies...
Albert Einstein is reported to have asked Niels Bohr whether he realistically believed that 'the moon does not exist if nobody is looking at it.' To this Bohr replied that however hard he may try, he would not be able to prove that it does, thus giving the entire riddle the status of a kind of an infallible conjecture one that cannot be either proved or disproved.
If Bugsy tells a lie in the woods where no one can hear does it make a sound ?
 
Maybe Top Gear should do a programme comparing the Trabant with the Indian made Ambassador car?
On the roads the Trabbi was designed for, I would back it against a lot of modern 4x4 SUV's. :wink:

It might not be up to western standards of luxury but, those little buggers used to turn up in the middle of nowhere, using tracks that would make a cart track seem like a super highway. :boogie:
 
Weighed nothing. The small Suzuki jeeps also get in and out of some odd places.

Not much good for load hauling in crappy places though.
 

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