Oh dear, so the GDR really wasn't nice then ?

[Helm]

Feldwebel is a company commander now is he?
If you're going to make stuff up, do a bit of research first, it makes it more challenging for me to disprove you.

edited to add: beaten to it by Brotherton Lad.

Well when you've never been in an army at all like Bugsy it's easy to get confused

 

[Maple]

Ah, Maypole! You really are a very sad piece of work in your pathetically desperate endeavour to, as it were, "prove me wrong" whatever it takes! So what do we have?

Maypole? Again? Is that the best you can do?

How about rather than trotting out the usual bollocks why not address reality?

I've asked you about just three of your lies. why not explain why you continue to lie and prevaricate?

Three simple questions
Have the Border-guard's 'shoot to kill' orders been found?
Did you say you had proof of the Orgreve thing?
Did you say the British Army had killed your family twice?

Address the questions please, no ad hominems, no avoiding the questions, no more lies - what good do they do when no-one here believes a word you say?

 

[oldsoak]

Tsk! A Feldwebel is a Sergeant.

I do agree with your point that many East German troops would have sought to control an escape without opening fire, though.

I think that would be relying on their common humanity rather than their written orders. And yes, not all were demons. Some were pretty average human beings. Not sure how many attempted escapees got slotted by the border guards, but I'll wager not many guards got the PIL treatment for carrying it out.

 

[stacker1]

Tsk! A Feldwebel is a Sergeant.

Feldwebel is a company commander now is he?

Good old Bugsy, never fails to make himself look like a prat.

 

[Brotherton Lad]

I think that would be relying on their common humanity rather than their written orders. And yes, not all were demons. Some were pretty average human beings. Not sure how many attempted escapees got slotted by the border guards, but I'll wager not many guards got the PIL treatment for carrying it out.

I agree, but the important point is that common humanity was well-grounded in East Germany (despite all the unpleasantness). After all, when those mass protests started in Leipzig in 1989 there was no massacre.

 

[DaManBugs]

Tsk! A Feldwebel is a Sergeant.

I do agree with your point that many East German troops would have sought to control an escape without opening fire, though.

That's right, Brotherton Lad, "Feldwebel" is Sergeant. The ominous "smoking-gun order" allegedly written to finally "prove" (on a number of occasions as it turned out) that there was indeed an official "shoot-to-kill" order was actually inofficially turned out by a "Feldwebel" in 1973.

Far from being any sort of "company commander" he was, instead, a "Grenzabschnittsbevollmächtigter". Which, regardless of how you attempt to wiggle it around, accurately translates to: "person authorised to be in charge of a border section". This was at a time (1973) shortly after the NVA had first been asked to train and deploy special border guards (GrenzTruppen) to take over from the "Grenzpolizei" in the GDR.

You'll know far better than me, Broftherton Lad, how responsibilities within NVA and border troops were spread out, changed or altered on the fly as the political situation demanded. I look forward to your future contributions to this thread - sofern du überhaupt Bock dazu hast, Alter, denn du scheinst dich in letzter Zeit auf der Webseite ziemlich dünne gemacht zu haben.

MsG

PS. Ach Jaisus! I hope Dooky_Boy ain't gonna show up and can me for using German on a thread all about Germany!

 

[Brotherton Lad]

That's right, Brotherton Lad, "Feldwebel" is Sergeant. The ominous "smoking-gun order" allegedly written to finally "prove" (on a number of occasions as it turned out) that there was indeed an official "shoot-to-kill" order was actually inofficially turned out by a "Feldwebel" in 1973.

Far from being any sort of "company commander" he was, instead, a "Grenzabschnittsbevollmächtigter". Which, regardless of how you attempt to wiggle it around, accurately translates to: "person authorised to be in charge of a border section". This was at a time (1973) shortly after the NVA had first been asked to train and deploy special border guards (GrenzTruppen) to take over from the "Grenzpolizei" in the GDR.

You'll know far better than me, Broftherton Lad, how responsibilities within NVA and border troops were spread out, changed or altered on the fly as the political situation demanded. I look forward to your future contributions to this thread - sofern du überhaupt Bock dazu hast, Alter, denn du scheinst dich in letzter Zeit auf der Webseite ziemlich dünne gemacht zu haben.

MsG

PS. Ach Jaisus! I hope Dooky_Boy ain't gonna show up and can me for using German on a thread all about Germany!

Duenne? I've been waxing lyrical about Brexit.

Or did you mean the Forum Deutsche Einheit Webseite?

 

[DaManBugs]

Maypole? Again? Is that the best you can do?

How about rather than trotting out the usual bollocks why not address reality?

I've asked you about just three of your lies. why not explain why you continue to lie and prevaricate?

Three simple questions
Have the Border-guard's 'shoot to kill' orders been found?
Did you say you had proof of the Orgreve thing?
Did you say the British Army had killed your family twice?

Address the questions please, no ad hominems, no avoiding the questions, no more lies - what good do they do when no-one here believes a word you say?

My goodness, Maypole! You really are so far your own arrogant arse that you can lick your own tonsils. I've no duty to answer any questions at all. But "der vollstänsigkeitshalber" I'll provide you with answers to your rather irrelevant questions.
To one: No shoot-to-kill orders for the GDR border guards have ever been found.
To two: I never mentioned anything about proof of the "Orgreave thing".
To three: I never, ever said that.

Can we now get back to the subject of the thread?

MsG

 

[hotel_california]

My goodness, Maypole! You really are so far your own arrogant arse that you can lick your own tonsils. I've no duty to answer any questions at all. But "der vollstänsigkeitshalber" I'll provide you with answers to your rather irrelevant questions.
To one: No shoot-to-kill orders for the GDR border guards have ever been found.
To two: I never mentioned anything about proof of the "Orgreave thing".
To three: I never, ever said that.

Can we now get back to the subject of the thread?

MsG

Never happened?
Mauerschützen-Prozesse

.....Over the 15 years ever since the Fall of the Berlin Wall, courts across Germany have sought to bring those people to justice who were in some way responsible for the former Communist East German regime’s shoot-to-order policy at the dividing line between the former Cold War enemies.

Now, the federal court of justice in Leipzig has ended the last of several hundred post-unification trials that dealt with the nearly 1,000 people killed while trying to cross the Berlin Wall or the former inner-German border.....


Shall I carry on?

 

[boabbyrab]

He was shot by border guards, but had no orders to kill him.....

 

[DaManBugs]

Good old Bugsy, never fails to make himself look like a prat.

Wow! Thanks again, spackerinski. Really useful information you're providing there. Keep it up and more elb to your powerbow.

MsG

 

[HappyNomad]

Presumably, if no order to 'shoot to kill' was ever given then shooting somebody dead would have been in contravention of prevailing orders. No doubt the soldiers responsible for death by shooting would have been tried by courts martial for the murder of their fellow citizens?

 

[hotel_california]

Presumably, if no order to 'shoot to kill' was ever given then shooting somebody dead would have been in contravention of prevailing orders. No doubt the soldiers responsible for death by shooting would have been tried by courts martial for the murder of their fellow citizens?

The RSM must have really got pissed off at the 916th contravention and that's why it stopped.

 

[stacker1]

Wow! Thanks again, spackerinski. Really useful information you're providing there. Keep it up and more elb to your powerbow.

MsG

It almost as if you have given up defending your fibs about East Germany and are now floundering around in the hope one of the Mods bans you.
That way you wont have to address the fact you are lying (Yet again).

 

[DaManBugs]

So the unamimous decision of the (far from impartial) ARRSE jury is that the GDR border regime was barbaric and in direct contrast to any human rights. OK. I agree entirely. In fact, I've never disagreed with that, as I've stated on several different occasions. So what do we (youse) do now?

What I've always stated, and is to this day factually correct, is that no authority in the GDR ever issued a clear "shoot-to-kill order to the GDR border guards. There was no such order, there has never been any such order and, to date, no-one, but no-one, has ever produced any verifiable evidence that such an official "shoot-to-kill" ever even existed.

MsG

 

[DaManBugs]

It almost as if you have given up defending your fibs about East Germany and are now floundering around in the hope one of the Mods bans you.
That way you wont have to address the fact you are lying (Yet again).

Wow! Thanks again for the very valuable information you continue to contribute to the thread, spackerman. All those involved really appreciate the time and trouble to take to dig up such important facts. Well done!

MsG

 

[HappyNomad]

So the unamimous decision of the (far from impartial) ARRSE jury is that the GDR border regime was barbaric and in direct contrast to any human rights. OK. I agree entirely. In fact, I've never disagreed with that, as I've stated on several different occasions. So what do we (youse) do now?

What I've always stated, and is to this day factually correct, is that no authority in the GDR ever issued a clear "shoot-to-kill order to the GDR border guards. There was no such order, there has never been any such order and, to date, no-one, but no-one, has ever produced any verifiable evidence that such an official "shoot-to-kill" ever even existed.

MsG

If no clear order to shoot to kill was ever issued to border guards then the standing orders must have proscribed shooting citizens at the border. It really is that binary isn't it

 

[hotel_california]

He was shot by border guards, but had no orders to kill him.....



View attachment 327247

Two of the East German guards were convicted of killing Peter Fechter in 1997; the third guard died before charges were brought. Funnily enough They were not convicted or chatged by the Stasi....

 

[stacker1]

Wow! Thanks again for the very valuable information you continue to contribute to the thread, spackerman. All those involved really appreciate the time and trouble to take to dig up such important facts. Well done!

MsG

I assume your broken brain is currently on loop mode.
Is your wop of a wife currently staring at you, wondering why you are shouting the same thing over and over again?

 

[DaManBugs]

If no clear order to shoot to kill was ever issued to border guards then the standing orders must have proscribed shooting citizens at the border. It really is that binary isn't it

It's exactly like you state, Crappy_NoMark! Personally, I blame all these Donald Duck filums. But that's just me, innit?

MsG

PS. On the other hand, it could've also been the "Road Runner" filums. But what do I know?