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Offshore Windfarm development boosted by £2 million research

Innovative research to develop cutting-edge technology and make sure future offshore windfarms do not interfere with crucial military communications is underway following a £2 million Government investment.

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Polyester

War Hero
Offshore wind with parts made in China thanks to SSE.
Parts made in China thanks to SeimensGamesa, Senvion, Vestas etc etc. SSE just buy them, they don’t get to specify where they are to be manufactured. A lot of the internal electronics are designed and overseen by European engineers. I do agree however on the premise that we should not be buying from the Chinese.

I believe it would be difficult for them to incorporate intelligence gathering devices or software into the systems.
 

NSP

LE
Parts made in China thanks to SeimensGamesa, Senvion, Vestas etc etc. SSE just buy them, they don’t get to specify where they are to be manufactured. A lot of the internal electronics are designed and overseen by European engineers. I do agree however on the premise that we should not be buying from the Chinese.

I believe it would be difficult for them to incorporate intelligence gathering devices or software into the systems.
They do have software in them, though. At least, the Vestas ones do. They are controlled by an onboard computer which has a radio telemetry link for monitoring and control over-ride.

I imagine other brands of turbine nacelle have a similar arrangement in the control system. Scope for a "kill switch" to be hidden in the code, maybe?
 

Polyester

War Hero
They do have software in them, though. At least, the Vestas ones do. They are controlled by an onboard computer which has a radio telemetry link for monitoring and control over-ride.

I imagine other brands of turbine nacelle have a similar arrangement in the control system. Scope for a "kill switch" to be hidden in the code, maybe?
Yes all wind turbines have a remote operating system, and many have a telemetry link. Obviously nothing is failsafe from a foreign intelligence system if they really want to get in but I am reasonably confident that it would be unlikely for a variety of reasons. I am not saying it’s impossible, just unlikely. There are easier ways to interrupt power generation/network/distribution.
 

NSP

LE
Yes all wind turbines have a remote operating system, and many have a telemetry link. Obviously nothing is failsafe from a foreign intelligence system if they really want to get in but I am reasonably confident that it would be unlikely for a variety of reasons. I am not saying it’s impossible, just unlikely. There are easier ways to interrupt power generation/network/distribution.
It's the potential threat rather than actual, I'd have thought. Speculating wildly as I create the plot of my Cyril's next technothriller, I wonder if Germany's failure to go fully green was a result of a hack on their turbines, rendering them unable to meet demand and remaining reliant on the flammable stuff pumping through those two long, long pipes running the length of the Baltic? And did so many of them burst into flames or become unbalanced and throw a blade because of jiggery-pokery with the turbines remotely?

Actually, that was probably because they bought them from the cheapest bidder - which would likely be the.............................................Chinese!!
 

Polyester

War Hero
It's the potential threat rather than actual, I'd have thought. Speculating wildly as I create the plot of my Cyril's next technothriller, I wonder if Germany's failure to go fully green was a result of a hack on their turbines, rendering them unable to meet demand and remaining reliant on the flammable stuff pumping through those two long, long pipes running the length of the Baltic? And did so many of them burst into flames or become unbalanced and throw a blade because of jiggery-pokery with the turbines remotely?

Actually, that was probably because they bought them from the cheapest bidder - which would likely be the.............................................Chinese!!
Ha!Ha! Sounds good! Get it printed!

You are correct of course, an aggressive foreign intelligence effort could theoretically hack into a turbines operating software and overide a couple of safety systems or even just stall the blades and stop the turbine from turning but in practice it would be hard to do because of the way the operating system is monitored and separated/ protected. Plus, it’s a doddle to whip out the CPU and fire in a fresh one with fresh protection. Back up and running in hours.

The UK position is a blend of generation types. We will never totally rely on wind turbines despite what the media push out. (and it’s technically impossible). Nuclear or thermal is a necessity for a variety of reasons but I won’t bore you with all that bollocks.

In terms of Risk, I reckon the weaknesses are with other DNO infrastructures.
 
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NSP

LE
an aggressive foreign intelligence effort could theoretically hack into a turbines operating software and overide a couple of safety systems or even just stall the blades and stop the turbine from turning but in practice it would be hard to do because...
...if the operator is called on by us to call an emergency stop because, say, we have had a DP run-off into the blade-arc it'll be twenty-thirty minutes before the hub is static.

That's not Clunge writing his fiction, that's me quoting the headshed in the kick-off meeting.
 

NSP

LE
In terms of Risk, I reckon the weaknesses are with other DNO infrastructures.
I reckon the weakness is betting on wind to the exclusion of all else. It's a variable resource. Nuclear is constant and regulatable.
 

Polyester

War Hero
...if the operator is called on by us to call an emergency stop because, say, we have had a DP run-off into the blade-arc it'll be twenty-thirty minutes before the hub is static.

That's not Clunge writing his fiction, that's me quoting the headshed in the kick-off meeting.
Can you clarify what a DP is? (I was under the impression DP at sea is for dynamic positioning of the vessel). Why would a ”DP” approach a blade arc?

I’m intrigued also by a 25-30 minute emergency shutdown process. That is a long time unless the operator is talking about a team getting into the nacelle to isolate the hub? Or to get into the basement and manually apply the brake? Otherwise it’s a simple stall and apply rotor brake. 45- 60 seconds maybe? That’s why it’s called an emergency stop. Not that it matters. If that’s what you have been told then that’s that. It’s just a bit unusual in my experience.
 

Polyester

War Hero
I reckon the weakness is betting on wind to the exclusion of all else. It's a variable resource. Nuclear is constant and regulatable.

Naturally and that is why it’s Government policy to include multiple sources and sites of generation for spreading the risk (and of course many other technical requirements such as frequency management) but that wasn’t the “risk” type that we were referring to. We were discussing penetration by a foreign power not the risk of failing to meet demand.

I have nothing against nuclear. If the UK public don’t want us to burn hydrocarbons and we haven’t fully cracked carbon capture then we are without choices but nuclear is ruinously expensive.

Could you explain what you mean by “regulatable”?
 
I recall this sort of thing being done for (on-shore) windfarms back in the early 90s at RAF Henlow. Are we once again reinventing the wheel
 
...if the operator is called on by us to call an emergency stop because, say, we have had a DP run-off into the blade-arc it'll be twenty-thirty minutes before the hub is static.

That's not Clunge writing his fiction, that's me quoting the headshed in the kick-off meeting.
Offshore WTGs are yawed and stopped to ensure the DP vessel can approach from the optimal TP gate. This is visually confirmed by the bridge prior to final approach.
 
Can you clarify what a DP is? (I was under the impression DP at sea is for dynamic positioning of the vessel). Why would a ”DP” approach a blade arc?

I’m intrigued also by a 25-30 minute emergency shutdown process. That is a long time unless the operator is talking about a team getting into the nacelle to isolate the hub? Or to get into the basement and manually apply the brake? Otherwise it’s a simple stall and apply rotor brake. 45- 60 seconds maybe? That’s why it’s called an emergency stop. Not that it matters. If that’s what you have been told then that’s that. It’s just a bit unusual in my experience.
See my previous. There's stopping and there's stopping in the right place.
 
I reckon the weakness is betting on wind to the exclusion of all else. It's a variable resource. Nuclear is constant and regulatable.

There is a massive push on energy storage plus factor in green hydrogen and it's not as unreliable as it used to be.
 

Polyester

War Hero
See my previous. There's stopping and there's stopping in the right place.
There is a massive push on energy storage plus factor in green hydrogen and it's not as unreliable as it used to be.
I read a document at work a wee while back concerning the germans developing a hydrogen powered train(s). They were looking at ways to tie the hydrogen generation plant directly to the offshore wind turbines at times of low demand but I think they settled on a standard grid connection to their existing plant in the end. We are investing very heavily in carbon capture at the moment and obviously offshore wind too.
 
I read a document at work a wee while back concerning the germans developing a hydrogen powered train(s). They were looking at ways to tie the hydrogen generation plant directly to the offshore wind turbines at times of low demand but I think they settled on a standard grid connection to their existing plant in the end. We are investing very heavily in carbon capture at the moment and obviously offshore wind too.
It'll be standard practice in 5 years. The industry is moving so quickly it's like watching Tomorrow's World. Have you seen the new CTV to TP access system? Heave compensation personal winch!
 

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