Officers do we need them?

Discussion in 'Army Pay, Claims & JPA' started by Danny-Deaver1, Apr 9, 2007.

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  1. I dont know if this has been done before and if it has my apologies.
    Why cant the forces run on the same basis as the police fire service ect?
    Everyone starts at the bottom even those with a degree and the cream floats to the top.
    I ask this because it seems that in a regiment it is only LE officers who can be trusted to feed the troops, get ther kit, and sort out the transport. E.G OC HQ Coy, MTO, QM. It just seems to me that the police who constantly miss targets get more and more cash and men and their senior officers constantly complain about them not having enough resources. Whilst the forces are under constant pressure and the senior officers take a "no prob's sir" appoach to everything.
    Do you think the police, fire ect senior officers are more in tune with their staff because the road they have taken? and do you think it's about time the forces did the same?
    Do you think it would be better organised with more LE officers above Brig rank.
  2. I'm not (yet at least) a member of the armed forces and even I can see what is wrong with that suggestion.

    What happens to the current rank structure.........

    Surely it would either require complete alteration of the role's of individuals or a complete shift in the time scale of promotions.

    I believe it is unusual for LE officers to rise above the rank of major because by the time they get there they are that much older due to having served in the ranks. So surely if everyone started in the ranks then either officers of Brigadier rank or above would need zimmer frames to get around or Warrant officers would be much younger and have less responsibility. If that is so then someone else has to take on their responsibilities.

    Another flaw in this is that police constables start on more than 20k a year........Squaddies on 12k. Is a graduate just out of uni up to their eyeballs in debt going to risk a career in the army where they might be stuck in for at least 4 odd years and come out still on less than 20k a year?

    Essentially forcing everyone to join in the ranks and work their way up would require massive re-structuring and a complete and utter change in the ethos and work ethic of the British army.

    Conclusion: interesting suggestion, but unfortunately not practical
  3. Sorry, I thought that was happening/had happened anyway.
  4. It is now more common for LE Officers to reach Lt Col. and I think you might be a bit out with a starting pay of 12 Grand, unless you mean training and yes I am suggesting that maybe it is time to have a major re think. and if 20K starting pay is what it takes so be it I think the forces do as good and worthwhile job as the emergency services.
  5. It would be a misconcepton to believe that LE officers are more in touch with the troops - this may be the case in some instances and certainly is not in others. It is purely subjective and based on the opinion of the person who makes the oberservation.

    Some LEs are there because they want to be - to progress, to be more than the sum of their parts, to carry on in the career they enjoy.

    Also, there are a fair share of LEs that continue to exist in the army because they are too scared to leave, don't have a house, would not be able to secure a comparable wage. These are usually the ones who sit back, do very little and knock off for golf at the first available opportunity.

    As for LEs not getting to the higher ranks, well they have to (usually) serve 6 years as a Captain, then (approx) 6 years as a Major. This only leaves 3 years for Lt Col, only 2% of those selected for an LE commission will be eligible for Lt Col rank (notwithstanding the option to transfer to the DE stream) - it is engineered this way.

    Since it will take the best part of 20 odd years until a soldier is eligible for an LE commission, how do you fill the gaps in the interim?

    You would need a selection board that based their choices on academic or vocational experience that targetted the right individuals at the optimum time ..... pretty much like the Regular Commissions Board does now, so even by implementing such a change, in effect nothing would alter.

    So in short - yes we do need officers.
  6. OR Pay scale

    Officer pay scale

    Police pay scales

    Ok so thats just the pay comparison.........after four years service a PC without any promotion is on 26 grande. After four years squaddie is on 18.

    So ok, change the pay scales.

    Would change the role of subby to what?

    Instead of subbie learning the trade and learning what it is to be a young officer subbie is now experienced soldier, so troop sergeant is now the younger one who is not so sure of what they are doing.

    I personally don't have the experience to comment on whether thats a bad thing, but surely it means that the quality of troop sergeants etc would drop.........doesn't it reduce the independence of a unit because all the older and more experienced soliders will be higher up the chain of command and not on the ground leading troops.............therefore the people in direct command of soldiers are not going to be as well equipped to lead and fight as effectively?
  7. 'course we do, who else could take the blame :twisted:
  8. It simply can't be done...

    It's what the Germans, French and Danes have been doing for years and they haven't won since 1834.

    Take a bloke out of his big country house, make him general by the age of 34 before seeing action (if you ignore Seringapatam) and he'll win you an empire.

    But why? is something I don't want to understand.
  9. What do you know HH??? never worn the green and an expert on the system, get some in then you can have an opinion.
    the 2 tier rank system is a throw back to the edwardian era and before. were the landed gentry in fuedal times had to be in charge because they had status as civvies and when they were enlisted by the barons that status remained. There is no requirement in this day and age to have a 2 tier system. the hypothesis for this argument is the hundreds of enlisted soldiers that have made it to commissioned rank after going through all the other ranks, if these soldiers show such leadership skills why is this not recognised and commisioned earlier. The reason is just commisioned snobbery, "cant let the wiff waff from the ranks into the mess"
    More ravings to follow!!!!
  10. I'll have an opinion anyway thanks :D, no objection to being told to wind my neck in because i'm a gobby sprog who knows nothing, although just because I haven't served yet doesn't mean I can't see some problems with the idea.

    Surely what you are saying here is more that we ought to have a system whereby natural leadership skills are identified early in in a soldiers career and they are put forward for AOSB accordingly?

    Surely that is different from saying there ought to be a 1 tier rank system?

    My point was that the whole way in which the british army works would have to change entirely for a 1 tier rank system to be put in place. Do you think that the way it works now is not good enough?

    Would it really help?

    How difficult would it be to change it all, huge upset to the way the army works, recruiting completely different, massive restructuring of the way the chain of command works etc...........
  11. The pay scale confirms my Point
    Police 2 years in the ranks then move on = 10 Const on 32 Grand
    + housing assistance, no Council tax and if you get in the shit retire on a medical
    Officers no 2 Years in the ranks = Pvt 10 Years 23 Grand
    Crap housing, make a mistake and get courts marshalled
    Perhaps it should be at least 2 years in the ranks first before commision.
    See what you are getting before commisioning.
    Surely 2 years added to an officers career is not too much?
  12. if it ain't broke don't fix it!!!

    yes there are some officers who are totally out of touch with the troops, and can't organise for toffee. there are also LE's out there who are just pension slaves and don't give a stuff for the blokes.

    There are outstanding officers, and horrible ones.

    There are outstanding NCO's, and horrible ones.

    You respect, and remember the former, put up with the latter.

    Also, if it's an outdated system of aristocratic privilege, why did I, a canadian high school dropout from a working class background, get recommended for RCB? And why do the canadians, aussies, kiwi's, every other commonwealth country, and even the yanks to some extent, use the 2-tier system??
  13. I don't mean to be rude but could you possibly clarify what this means:

    "Police 2 years in the ranks then move on = 10 Const on 32 Grand
    + housing assistance, no Council tax and if you get in the s*** retire on a medical
    Officers no 2 Years in the ranks = Pvt 10 Years 23 Grand
    Crap housing, make a mistake and get courts marshalled"
  14. The terms and conditions of the Police Service are not reconcilable with those of the army, they are for a completely different set of circumstances.

    Do the police still get housing assistance, certainly not as far as I know.

    If you think the TACOS of an officer is better than that of a soldier, then apply for a commission, if you think the TACOS of the Police is better than the Army, then join the police.

    The Police and the Army cannot be compared with any substantive meaning, and in any event the TACOS of the Police does not add anything to the original question of whether we need officers.
  15. My point was that the whole way in which the british army works would have to change entirely for a 1 tier rank system to be put in place. Do you think that the way it works now is not good enough?

    You have no idea how the army works because you havent served. You cant imagine being in a position of a commisioned officer ordering you to charge a soldier for having dirty finger nails when in point of fact said officer cant dress himself properly. Ergo your opinion counts for nil.
    When are you joining up??