Officer education

junior officer education - has it gone wrong

  • yes - AJD was the bench mark

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • no - the modular system is fairer, although it will lower standards

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0
#1
am i alone in thinking that junior officer education has truly lost the plot.
ie. MA cses, 3 x 4.5 day attendance cses = learn little, in true dilution of standards, no pass or fail, the classic green, amber red!

MK 2- well, what is it and how do you do it? how are adjts, Ops Os etc supposed to find 60 hrs study time?

I just heard that ICSC is getting reduced to 5 months due to G1/G4 costs? what's going on?
 
#2
MA module is like being at Sandhurst again; he who shouts loudest etc... I do wonder how anyone will ever find the time for the modular approach. If the Irish Guards didn't have time to practice Trooping the colour for the Queen's birthday (according to Auntie) then how the fcuk is an RLC Officer who is subject to trickle posting from one TELIC tour to another supposed to fit this crap in without a residential course?
 
#3
Why all the whining about fitting stuff in? MA courses - you get out what you put in. If you feel that you learn little, you should take a look at how you conduct yourself. There is plenty of interesting material there and if the donkey wallopers are banging their own trumpets then the instructors will have noted that, so you needn't worry. Just make sure your contributions are based on the product of evaluation and analysis of the available info. As to dilation of standards (did you mean dilution?) the course is not designed to pass/fail, it is simply a means to assess analytical ability, which is difficult to quantify. MK2 - If you can't find 60 hours within the time frame of completion you should hand your kit in and look for alternate employment. There are people out there that balance a wife and kids, an MBA and Sqn OC job. The conduct of MK 2 is a chain of command responsibility so if you can't find the time then your 1up should help you make time for it. I can't believe that people are so busy that they can't spend a couple of hours a week studying.

So don't delay, get started today:

https://www.da.mod.uk/mk

email - mkhelp@da.mod.uk

Helpdesk 96161 4489
 
#5
ScranSpanner said:
MK2 - If you can't find 60 hours within the time frame of completion you should hand your kit in and look for alternate employment. There are people out there that balance a wife and kids, an MBA and Sqn OC job. The conduct of MK 2 is a chain of command responsibility so if you can't find the time then your 1up should help you make time for it. I can't believe that people are so busy that they can't spend a couple of hours a week studying.
Well said Scran Spanner. If you want to do it you'll find the time. If you don't want to do it you'll find excuses. If you're erring on the latter then don't cry further down your career when you find more competent, enthusiastic officers who can manage their time over taking you. I know adjts/ops offrs are busy (I was one once) but there is a culture of creeping presenteeism, the opposite to absenteeism. I.E. It is well known that adjt/ops offrs are busy - I am an adjt/ops offr therefore I must be busy - therefore I must remain at my desk at all times so people can see that I'm busy - therefore I will find work to fill in the time that I'm at my desk. If you're working flat out, all hours as a matter of routine how do you shift up a gear when something does actually happen?

At the risk of giving myself away here, I am in what was advertised as one of "the most demanding staff jobs" (OK, I admit it isn't really), I am married with children and I do find time to do a part time PhD. Like I said, if you want to do it, you'll find the time.

Next excuse please!!
 
#6
Johnny_Ludlow said:
...I am in what was advertised as one of "the most demanding staff jobs" (OK, I admit it isn't really), I am married with children and I do find time to do a part time PhD...
Sounds like the Army is getting its money's worth here!
 
#7
I will give you the TA version of this mess!

When the MK system was introduced by a senior Col, it was meant to be a rounded and fair way of gaining the qualifications for promotion. HAH!

120 hrs later you still ahve to sit all the exams in one lump. It is only now after 18/24 months some bright spark has realised that it is not working. The grown up preech that we should make time if we wish to have a 2nd career. this is all well and good for me as I can allocate this kind of time, what about the poor just graduated types who have to work all the hours god send to make a name for them self in the big bad world.

We keep asking for a didicated cse that would allow us to undertake 1 week of MK and then go straight into the JOTAC phase. If all of us are in the same boat ie my Regular counter parts surley this is the easier answer. Make the 3 weeks constructive and combine the 2!

I will be able to comit to the origional plane but there will be very few form the TA who will have that option. Call me controversial but is the system trying to remove the Reserve Officers by making it too hard to qualify. This is apparent at higher levels where the TA Officers are missing out on CO post to allow reg Officers to get a comand slot. Where does that leave us young subbie who are trying to make our way through the sytem and finding hurdles at every stage.

It would be good to see if our Regular counter parts have the same hurdles to jump with the same restrictions? I love the Army and will strive to achieve but it needs to be made more accesable to the Reserve Officers and intergrated more closely with our Regular counter parts. Surely this would help with transfer of key skills.
 
#8
Sangreal said:
Johnny_Ludlow said:
...I am in what was advertised as one of "the most demanding staff jobs" (OK, I admit it isn't really), I am married with children and I do find time to do a part time PhD...
Sounds like the Army is getting its money's worth here!
I did not say that I'm doing the PhD work during Army time!
 
#9
I will give you the TA version of this mess!

When the MK system was introduced by a senior Col, it was meant to be a rounded and fair way of gaining the qualifications for promotion. HAH!

120 hrs later you still ahve to sit all the exams in one lump. It is only now after 18/24 months some bright spark has realised that it is not working. The grown up plural preech that we should make time if we wish to have a 2nd career. this is all well and good for me as I can allocate this kind of time, what about the poor just graduated types who have to work all the hours god send plural to make a name for them self in the big bad world.

We keep asking for a didicated cse that would allow us to undertake 1 week of MK and then go straight into the JOTAC phase. If all of us are in the same boat ie my Regular counter parts surley this is the easier answer. Make the 3 weeks constructive and combine the 2!

I will be able to comit to the origional plane but there will be very few form the TA who will have that option. Call me controversial but is the system trying to remove the Reserve Officers by making it too hard to qualify. This is apparent at higher levels where the TA Officers are missing out on CO post plural to allow reg Officers to get a comand slot. Where does that leave us young subbie plural who are trying to make our way through the sytem and finding hurdles at every stage. I'd have used a question mark at this point

It would be good to see if our Regular counter parts have the same hurdles to jump with the same restrictions? I wouldn't have used a question mark at this point I love the Army and will strive to achieve but it needs to be made more accesable to the Reserve Officers and intergrated more closely with our Regular counter parts. Surely this would help with transfer of key skills.
I would respectfully suggest, Evilone, that before you start on your military education, you work through the new eDW package at this link, paying particular attention to the sections on spelling, grammar and punctuation.

eDW

Yours pedantically

Fluffy
 
#10
FluffyBunny said:
I would respectfully suggest, Evilone, that before you start on your military education, you work through the new eDW package at this link, paying particular attention to the sections on spelling, grammar and punctuation.

eDW

Yours pedantically

Fluffy
So having taken the time and trouble to work out - in perfect English - exactly what he was trying to say, would you like to answer his points?
 
#12
I am sooooo glad that fluffybunny has a picture well suited to his/her own position. When you feel as strongly as I do over this subject you just type and post. I would love to have the same amount of time as you obviously have to be a DW Nazi. Next time I will spend more time on DW than looking after my soldiers. That would then obviously put me in your higher class bracket. Since when did spelling, punctuation etc make me a good or bad leader? ( is that ok to use the ? mark)

If any one here would like to give me and my fellow subbies a Grown up answer that would be most helpfull. If like Fluffybunny you feel it is more benificial to DW me then enjoy but I tend to ingnore such ARRSE!!
Thanks
ps I have not checked any DW so there!
 
#13
evilone said:
Since when did spelling, punctuation etc make me a good or bad leader?
If any one here would like to give me and my fellow subbies a Grown up answer that would be most helpfull. Thanks
I don't believe that Fluffy Bunny linked your ability to produce effective Defence Writing with your leadership skills. It is obviously a point that concerns you; has your leadership been criticised in the past? Of course, producing effective and coherent Defence Writing does not have much to do with the ability to lead men, however it does have everything to do with attention to detail. It is rather like that old RMAS chestnut that was delivered by the DS on finding your pocket unbuttoned; "pocket today, ammunition pouch tomorrow Sir!" If you can't be bothered with getting the detail correct in a simple letter then what other details are you neglecting to ensure are in order?

Fluffy Bunny's reply to your original post demonstrates the other reason why Defence Writing is important. If you don't bother to get it correct then others who are capable of putting together a paragraph without syntax errors will become fixated on your inability to do so, to the detriment of the message that you are attempting to put across.

It is not about being pedantic, it is about being correct. Your comment about grown ups is telling.
 
#14
Actually, Evilone old chap or chapette, my DW is poor, as are my spelling and punctuation. As I am aware of this fault I take particular care to check my written work for mistakes and put much time and effort into studying to correct my failings. Whether you study the eDW course or not will make little difference to my career, but it will make a difference to yours.

Diligence in all things. You will find, as you climb the ladder of leadership, that your troops will respect your natural abilities more if you arrive at the correct grid (because you checked it then checked it again), attack in the direction you were supposed to (because you checked it then checked it again) and manage to produce their rations in the correct quantities and at the correct time (because you checked it then checked it again) etc.etc.

Your "Devil may care" approach, garnered doubtless from "Hamburger Hill" and the like, where the unconventional officer wins the day will perhaps not stand you in as good a stead as you may instinctively believe.

I was that soldier, realised I was being a cnut, and did something about it . . . . . .

Later in my career, I met and had to work with other such cnuts. The troops do not respect them. Listen to the voice of reason and experience here youngster, and do not be the Officer who walks through Shovel Wood on a regular basis.

There is more to being an effective leader than just shouting "follow me", and good staff skills are an essential extra part. Practice them.

As far as the new educational system is concerned, I fail to see what the problem is. It's about 100 hours for MK 1? Two hours per week for 6 months? If you are unable to manage your time to that extent, then you do not deserve your commission.

If you are Regular and in a demanding job, ask your superiors for time to study. It's only a couple of hours a week FFS.

If you are TA, you should be even more able to cope. IIRC 9 MTDs are allowed for this course, but I could be wrong. You should check. Unless you train every weekend as it is, then you should have plenty of time (bearing in mind my comments about Officers and their time management skills).

Many people (e.g. NHS Nurses who want promotion and better pay) have to study throughout their careers to keep ahead of the crowd and maintain their skills.

Why should the military be any different?

Now I have offered you the benefit of my advice, garnered by observation of some very fine Officers, I will leave you to continue your doubtless meteoric rise.

Kind regards

Fluffy
 
#15
^FB - evilone knows I think he (it is a he) should stop moaning and get on with it but there are a few big errors in your post which cannot be allowed to stand.

Firstly, his troops respect him massively - he works tirelessly on their behalf and is getting the hang of Command as well as Leadership. I have this on good authority from several well placed sources across a number of Messes as he is not in my COC.

Secondly, he attends pretty much every weekend he possibly can and represents his Regt in a number of areas over and above routine soldiering. He has been clocking up around 90 days per year - way over and above what his unit is budgeted for.

He is TA, but your comment, "If you are TA, you should be even more able to cope." is nonsensical unless he is also unemployed (which he isn't) or single (which he isn't) or doesn't have a family to look after (which he does) or was willing to sacrifice other elements of TA General and Role-Specific training (which he wont).

His rise so far has been fairly meteoric and I have no reason to suspect that it will not continue to be so. He does understand the difference between DW and posting on arrse - might be a lesson in there for some of us. And whilst he does from time-to-time display more bottle than brains, it seems to me that if the Subbies weren't willing to do so then more of the "grown-ups" would need to swap their red pens for the rifle he carries.

I cannot defend him further without seriously compromising his PERSEC but am willing to do so if you will identify yourself in pm - any doubts about me, I'm sure GCO will give me the nod of approval.

Note to evilone - STFU and get on with it - fishing for compliments in these forums is like fcuking for virginity.
 
#16
FluffyBunny said:
Your "Devil may care" approach, garnered doubtless from "Hamburger Hill" and the like, where the unconventional officer wins the day will perhaps not stand you in as good a stead as you may instinctively believe.

I was that soldier, realised I was being a cnut, and did something about it . . . . . .
Fluffy,

Absolutely. I too was a cnut in my youth and it took a 2 Star interview without coffee and a 9926(?) on the back page of my CR book before I did anything about it. It was not until this stage that I realised that when I was having a laugh with the troop a good proportion of them were probably laughing at me rather than with me. I now treat my career as if I am a small pebble in a stream, sometimes I'm happy to be pushed along by the water, sometimes I let it flow around me, but I never fight against the current.
 
#17
My apologies then for doubting Evilone's abilities.

BUT

Anything written by someone known to be an Officer should, IMHO, contain correct spelling, punctuation and grammar (especially when written in a forum open to the public). I led myself down a blind alley by reference to DW. What I should have made absolutely clear was the educative properties of the first part of eDW. That part refers to spelling, punctuation and grammar.

JL makes a very valid point in that poor presentational standards will colour other folks' opinions and lay you open to vitriolic attacks from fogeys such as myself.

I congratulate Evilone on his dedication to his troops and the TA. I'm sure when writes to and for them, his standards are impeccable.

However, even the 90 day TA Officer should still be able to fit in time for MK 1 (and I acknowledge the estimate of 50 hrs allowed in OCDH is on the low side) , even if it means doing a few less routine weekends or making time in your personal life. Having re-read the pertinent chapters of OCDH it seems that you have about 18 months to complete MK 1. Even if it takes 150 hours, that's still only an hour per week.

I know TA Officers are under many competing pressures and whilst Evilone's attendance is excellent, it is not unique. There are other Officers and ORs who manage to attend training for 60+ MTDs, manage a 60 hr/wk "proper" job, family, hobbies and still have time to study for FE qualifications.

If MK 1 is two hours per week, that is about a third of a single OU module. It might not be easy, but if you want to have command of troops at higher and higher level, then it shouldn't be easy to get there. It should be as difficult as it can possibly be made, to weed out anyone whose dedication, effective intelligence and military skills are not of the very highest order.

I truly wish Evilone well in his career. I hope my cage-rattling spurs him on to complete MK 1, JOTAC, MK 2, MA and the rest of the alphabet soup that ROCC has foisted upon us in the shortest possible time.

I apologise if I have offended anyone in any way here with my comments but they were intended to be contructive.

Kind regards to one and all.

Fluffy
 
#18
FluffyBunny said:
However, even the 90 day TA Officer should still be able to fit in time for MK 1 (and I acknowledge the estimate of 50 hrs allowed in OCDH is on the low side) , even if it means doing a few less routine weekends or making time in your personal life. Having re-read the pertinent chapters of OCDH it seems that you have about 18 months to complete MK 1. Even if it takes 150 hours, that's still only an hour per week.
Agreed wholeheartedly!

I forget who, or on which forum it was posted but I "liberated" a quote the other day for my own use and it was:

"If you wan't to do it, you'll find the time. If you don't, you'll find excuses."
 
#20
Johnny_Ludlow said:
FluffyBunny said:
Your "Devil may care" approach, garnered doubtless from "Hamburger Hill" and the like, where the unconventional officer wins the day will perhaps not stand you in as good a stead as you may instinctively believe.

I was that soldier, realised I was being a cnut, and did something about it . . . . . .
Fluffy,

Absolutely. I too was a cnut in my youth and it took a 2 Star interview without coffee and a 9926(?) on the back page of my CR book before I did anything about it.
You've done something about it?

It was not until this stage that I realised that when I was having a laugh with the troop a good proportion of them were probably laughing at me rather than with me.
Hate to tell you this mate, but............

I now treat my career as if I am a small pebble in a stream, sometimes I'm happy to be pushed along by the water, sometimes I let it flow around me, but I never fight against the current.
Stop it, you're beginning to sound like Liddell Hart.
 

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