Obama trying for the muslim vote?

#3
It 3 blocks down from ground zero now i think i could agree if the mosque was being built on ground zero yeah unreasonable
but 3 block is around 3-400 metres radius i think, so i think it just boils down to hatred and racism of those affected by 9/11.

but i guess if we built a church in middle east on a significant part of the land the'll be uproar and some bombing.
 
#6
Frankly my dears..... etc.
 
#7
Looks like Obama is trying for the muslim vote just like New labour and co did.
BBC News - Obama defends right to build mosque near 9/11 site
Really, Lofty? Where? What election is he running in? What are the demographic factors? In what congressional districts might the Muslim vote be crucial? What are the electoral mathematics? Might this cost him more votes then it gains him?

Personally, I find it incredibly hypocritical (although entirely unsurprising) that American conservatives can spend 18 solid months bitching like little girls with skinned knees about unconstitutional government overreach, and the second something happens that they don't like, they demand that the government violates what is the first and most unambiguous article in the Bill of Rights:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances
Sarah Palin's ongoing Greco-Roman wrestling match with the English language aside, I find the most amusing comments to have come from Newt Gingrich, who wrote that "There should be no mosque near Ground Zero in New York so long as there are no churches or synagogues in Saudi Arabia". Great idea, Newt, but it seems a little odd for a man who thinks that Sharia law is coming soon to a courthouse near you to be calling for America to become more like Saudi Arabia. That'll show them who the big winners are. Good luck in 2012.
 
#8
It 3 blocks down from ground zero now i think i could agree if the mosque was being built on ground zero yeah unreasonable
but 3 block is around 3-400 metres radius i think, so i think it just boils down to hatred and racism of those affected by 9/11.
Two good points, there:
1. I doubt a fat ****** like Newt Gingrich would want to walk the distance from Ground Zero to the site of the Park 51 project. (BTW- the whole thing is a community centre. The people behind it are explicitly referring to the two stories to be used for prayer as a "prayer space". If they called it a Mosque then they couldn't use the space for other purposes- including other religious and interfaith services, and they couldn't refuse any Muslim the right to pray there. This way they free up space and can exercise some crowd control.)

2. The definition of people "affected" by 9/11 is interesting. The families of the victims are divided. Some are for it, some are against it. And while a small majority of New Yorkers (52%) oppose construction, among residents of Manhattan that figure drops to only 36%.( Ground Zero Mosque - Poll Says Majority of New Yorkers Not in Favor - Metropolis - WSJ ) It would seem that the farther you actually travel from the ground zero, the stronger the opposition you'll find.

But even if all the survivors, and every inhabitant of the World Trade Center's home borough, were united against it, that should not carry the day. The Constitution is not a Tylenol pill. It's not about making hurt people feel better- or pandering to the resentments of bigots, either. Nor is it about polls or majority votes. If it were, freedom of speech would not be possible, because freedom is always for the one who thinks differently.

My guess is that manufacturers of outrage buses are having a great year. I would be interested to see polling done on whether people who oppose it think that the government should intervene to stop it. In the words of one of my favourite screenwriters, Aaron Sorkin:

"You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours.
 
#9
This will cost him hugh votes in the bible belt [well the few who don't already vote Republican] although I think he will be a one trick [term] pony.
 
#10
Two good points, there:
1. I doubt a fat ****** like Newt Gingrich would want to walk the distance from Ground Zero to the site of the Park 51 project. (BTW- the people behind it are explicitly referring to the two stories to be used for prayer as a "prayer space". If they called it a Mosque then they couldn't use the space for other purposes, and they couldn't refuse any Muslim the right to pray there. This way they free up space and can exercise some crowd control.)

2. The definition of people "affected" by 9/11 is interesting. The families of the victims are divided. Some are for it, some are against it. And while a small majority of New Yorkers (52%) oppose construction, among residents of Manhattan that figure drops to only 36%.( Ground Zero Mosque - Poll Says Majority of New Yorkers Not in Favor - Metropolis - WSJ ) It would seem that the farther you actually travel from the ground zero, the stronger the opposition you'll find.

But even if all the survivors, and every inhabitant of the World Trade Center's home borough, were united against it, that should not carry the day. The Constitution is not a Tylenol pill. It's not about making hurt people feel better- or pandering to the resentments of bigots, either. Nor is it about polls or majority votes. If it were, freedom of speech would not be possible, because as Rosa Luxemburg said, freedom is "always...for the one who thinks differently."

My guess is that manufacturers of outrage buses are having a great year. I would be interested to see polling done on whether people who oppose it think that the government should intervene to stop it. In the words of one of my favourite screenwriters, Aaron Sorkin:
You make very valid points in both your posts and, as has already been pointed out, it is quite a way from GZ in a very crowded city. Clearly there is a Muslim population there or there would be no requirement to build so it will be serving its community as it should.
It is of no more significance really than a Catholic or CoI Church being built in Warrington. It was not the religion that committed atrocities it was a faction amongst them.
It might be nice to see the Immams or indeed the local Muslim community make some gesture of peace or outreach to the local community, if they haven't already done so.
 
#11
Mullah Obama, the American muslims leader, allows mosque to be built...........no surprise there then.

I bet them "good ol' boys" are loading their magazines with 6.5mm Carcano magic bullets as we speak.
 
#12
The building doesn't look specifically mosquey. http://i30.tinypic.com/2vwgzyc.jpg No ****ing minarets and calls to prayer near Ground Zero! Park at least some of the outrage bus fleet! It is ugly and out of place though.

If the 9/11 attacks were Islamic and a Mosque shouldn't be allowed near Ground Zero, then why are they allowed anywhere? Why hasn't Islam been roasted in nuclear fire, women and children too?

Because obviously the 9/11 hijackers did not speak (or act) for all Muslims and it isn't a justification for curtailing people's liberties. Nor are the cretinous "but Saudi Arabia do it too!!!" statements, unless Saudi was adopted as the high standard of morality and I missed the memo. I don't like Islam (nor do I like Christianity or any other religion) but **** me, I recognise the right of people to behave in a certain way, even if I don't like it, as long as it doesn't impinge on my freedom. That's something people in the burqa thread would do well to understand and give their heads a wobble. Unsurprisingly, the only substantial sensible arguments in this thread have been pro-freedom, crabtastic and Markintime.
 
#13
Lets shut the World Islamic centre in Goodge Street too. Its less than a klick from Tavistock square for Chrissakes!

The sooner Palin is assasinated the better. Otherwise she is riding that anti Obama wave all the way to Pennsylvania Avenue, and then the World will truly be fucked. She hasn't been allowed to have a thought since she cited her Foreign Policy experience as "being able to see Russia", so if she does get in she'll be a Gingrich et al Sock Puppet.

I might go and have another go at that Bunker I was planning....
 
#15
It may come back to bite future generations.

Victory for AQ we destroyed the twin towers, now we build a Mosque in the centre of our enemies country.
If only it were AQ that were building it. Somehow, I think that if the US intelligence community let an AQ cell operate so openly in New York then they've far more trouble than one piddly little prayer space opening two blocks away from GZ.
 
#16
If only it were AQ that were building it. Somehow, I think that if the US intelligence community let an AQ cell operate so openly in New York then they've far more trouble than one piddly little prayer space opening two blocks away from GZ.
The propaganda machine will say that, people will see that.
It will be seen as a victory against infidels.

(despite that AQ woudn't have actually built it)
 
#17
The propaganda machine will say that, people will see that.
It will be seen as a victory against infidels.

(despite that AQ woudn't have actually built it)
And the US propaganda machine will say "Look, we're not fighting a war against Islam so don't fall for that crock See? We're upholding religious freedom right next to Ground Zero". The difference between the two forms of propaganda is that the US stuff would be backed by actual fact - but only if this development is allowed to go ahead.

Far from being a mistake, this would be one of the best things the US could do in the ideological fight against the Islamists.
 
#18
What a complete load of absoloute horse shite.

A - it's not even on the same block. Unless manhatten is turning into some sort of zionist refuge then i don't see the complaint.

B- there is a clear need for religious tolerance on all sides.

C - americans (or a fair chunk of them) are morons.
 
#19
And the US propaganda machine will say "Look, we're not fighting a war against Islam so don't fall for that crock See? We're upholding religious freedom right next to Ground Zero". The difference between the two forms of propaganda is that the US stuff would be backed by actual fact - but only if this development is allowed to go ahead.

Far from being a mistake, this would be one of the best things the US could do in the ideological fight against the Islamists.
Good post.

Maybe so, but propaganda does not have to be fact.
 
#20
The propaganda machine will say that, people will see that.
It will be seen as a victory against infidels.

(despite that AQ woudn't have actually built it)
That same propaganda machine decries our scantily clad women (i.e., those not wearing a niqab/burqa) use of alcohol, legalisation of homosexuality, not praying five times a day, and generally not being Muslim enough. **** their propaganda machine! If the mosque is built, it'll be a victory, if it's prevented by the authorities, they'll cry discrimination by the evil West and have their propaganda victory anyway.

Defend our scantily clad ladies!

 

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