Obama Returns Churchill Bust

#1
[a]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/4623148/Barack-Obama-sends-bust-of-Winston-Churchill-on-its-way-back-to-Britain.html
 
#2
Big deal. Noise over nothing.
 

BuggerAll

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
#5
Quite right too. It was loaned to his predecessor - he doesn't want it so he returned it to its rightful owners. To have done anything else with it would have been 1: theft 2: very disrespectful.
 

Biped

LE
Book Reviewer
#6
He prefers the statue of the Republican Abraham Lincoln instead. The guy who oppressed and killed a lot of Yankies.
 
#7
Biped said:
He prefers the statue of the Republican Abraham Lincoln instead. The guy who oppressed and killed a lot of Yankies.
Oppressed and killed a lot of Southrons...not Yankees :p
 
#8
It's a snub. I'm actually starting to feel a bit sorry for Gordon Brown.

There he was, confident that Obama must be a raving leftie because he's black. Dreams of Obama becoming a mini-me while Gordon takes him by the hand and shows him how to save the world using socialism were shattered on the day after the election when Obama declined to take Gordon's phone calls.

The increasingly desperate attempts of Gordon and his party to associate themselves with the new President are only matched by Obama's increasingly desperate attempts to avoid him. It's rumoured that BHO might not turn up for the G20 summit in London in April because Labour are planning to use him for pro-Gordon publicity.

Gordon can't see that the Democrats are closer to the Tories than to Labour. He's like a dumped girlfriend who just wont stop calling.
 

BuggerAll

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
#9
Biped said:
He prefers the statue of the Republican Abraham Lincoln instead. The guy who oppressed and killed a lot of Yankies.
Extraordinary given Lincoln's views:

Lincoln on Racial Equality:

I am not now, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social or political equality of the white and black races. I am not now nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor of intermarriages with white people. There is a physical difference between the white and the black races which will forever forbid the two races living together on social or political equality. There must be a position of superior and inferior, and I am in favor of assigning the superior position to the white man.

Lincoln in his speech to Charleston, Illinois, 1858

Lincoln was against slavery but he considered Blacks in America to be a nuisance, not their fault but still a nuisance.
 
#10
BuggerAll said:
Biped said:
He prefers the statue of the Republican Abraham Lincoln instead. The guy who oppressed and killed a lot of Yankies.
Extraordinary given Lincoln's views:

Lincoln on Racial Equality:

I am not now, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social or political equality of the white and black races. I am not now nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor of intermarriages with white people. There is a physical difference between the white and the black races which will forever forbid the two races living together on social or political equality. There must be a position of superior and inferior, and I am in favor of assigning the superior position to the white man.

Lincoln in his speech to Charleston, Illinois, 1858

Lincoln was against slavery but he considered Blacks in America to be a nuisance, not their fault but still a nuisance.
I wonder if the civil war hadn't been in progress would the emancipation proclamation have been issued so soon.

War against the south not being resolved quickly enough? Free all the slaves and hey presto! An extra 100,000 troops to use in the war. Or am I just a horrendous cynic?
 

Biped

LE
Book Reviewer
#11
Countrylad said:
BuggerAll said:
Biped said:
He prefers the statue of the Republican Abraham Lincoln instead. The guy who oppressed and killed a lot of Yankies.
Extraordinary given Lincoln's views:

Lincoln on Racial Equality:

I am not now, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social or political equality of the white and black races. I am not now nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor of intermarriages with white people. There is a physical difference between the white and the black races which will forever forbid the two races living together on social or political equality. There must be a position of superior and inferior, and I am in favor of assigning the superior position to the white man.

Lincoln in his speech to Charleston, Illinois, 1858

Lincoln was against slavery but he considered Blacks in America to be a nuisance, not their fault but still a nuisance.
I wonder if the civil war hadn't been in progress would the emancipation proclamation have been issued so soon.

War against the south not being resolved quickly enough? Free all the slaves and hey presto! An extra 100,000 troops to use in the war. Or am I just a horrendous cynic?
Not at all old bean - it's well documented fact that these rights were given to negroes during the civil war for exactly that reason.
 
#12
...and to cover up the fact that he had just suffered a tactical defeat to a MUCH smaller army on the bloodiest day of American history at the battle of Sharpsburg (Antietam to the Yankees).
 
#13
It would be quite interesting to find out how many African-Americans served in the union army during the war, I can't check now as i'm at work but will later.

Talking about American leaders whom have less than savoury reputations with regards to slaves, I always find it rather interesting that the rebel leaders of the American revolutionary war returned the slaves freed by Britain back to the fields - hardly liberty for all.
 

BuggerAll

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
#14
Countrylad said:
It would be quite interesting to find out how many African-Americans served in the union army during the war, I can't check now as i'm at work but will later.

Talking about American leaders whom have less than savoury reputations with regards to slaves, I always find it rather interesting that the rebel leaders of the American revolutionary war returned the slaves freed by Britain back to the fields - hardly liberty for all.
Something to do with the right to property and the state not having the right to deprive a citizen of his property.
 
#15
Back to Churchill - could be several reasons for the return:
1) It was a loan, as stated to W., not to Mr. Obama.
2) He wants to define a different relationship between the US and UK.
3) He has less than warm feelings towards Mr. Churchill, given the man's role in Kenya.
 

BuggerAll

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
#16
KevinB said:
Back to Churchill - could be several reasons for the return:
1) It was a loan, as stated to W., not to Mr. Obama.
2) He wants to define a different relationship between the US and UK.
3) He has less than warm feelings towards Mr. Churchill, given the man's role in Kenya.
Small technical point but its Sir Winston not 'Mr'. However like other great men he has transcended the the need for honourifics and may generally be referred to as 'Churchill' without giving offence.

Odd that Mr Obama would have a problem with Churchill's role (real or imagined) in Kenya but forgive Lincoln's racism. I suspect Mr Obama is not as petty as you think and that it is point 1 only that applies.
 

Biped

LE
Book Reviewer
#17
BuggerAll said:
KevinB said:
Back to Churchill - could be several reasons for the return:
1) It was a loan, as stated to W., not to Mr. Obama.
2) He wants to define a different relationship between the US and UK.
3) He has less than warm feelings towards Mr. Churchill, given the man's role in Kenya.
Small technical point but its Sir Winston not 'Mr'. However like other great men he has transcended the the need for honourifics and may generally be referred to as 'Churchill' without giving offence.

Odd that Mr Obama would have a problem with Churchill's role (real or imagined) in Kenya but forgive Lincoln's racism. I suspect Mr Obama is not as petty as you think and that it is point 1 only that applies.
Not quite. When Obama took office, we cordially offered it to him also on a further four year lendy, but he said no, I'd rather have someone from the other side of the floor, a republican, who wasn't very nice to slaves.

I'm getting a whiff of the anti-British about Obama, which is a shame, because it all happened before he was born, and he's American, not Kenyan. Britain has been a GOOD ally to his adopted country, so if he's got a hang-up, best he get over it, or he might find the US is in hot places all by itself AND has less of a voice in the EU.

Just a thought.
 
#18
KevinB said:
Back to Churchill - could be several reasons for the return:
3) He has less than warm feelings towards Mr. Churchill, given the man's role in Kenya.
You might just as well say that it was because of his direct involment in the malakan Field Force or the Battle of Omdurman and the resulting Muslim deaths. And that would get the conspiracy threads going.

But has Broom really upheld his end of the 'Special Relationship ? For 18 months and more he has been pointing his fat figures westward and saying it is all their fault, as the Liarbore party defaults to its basic Anti Americanism. Hardly the mark of a loyal friend in times of need and one that must rankle with the new regime in DC.

Equally if Obama wants to increase and widen NATO particpation in 'Stan, and if to bring the French on side he has to stick one over on the Brits , well , it's just politics, nothing personal !
 
#19
Ancient_Mariner said:
It's a snub. I'm actually starting to feel a bit sorry for Gordon Brown.

There he was, confident that Obama must be a raving leftie because he's black. Dreams of Obama becoming a mini-me while Gordon takes him by the hand and shows him how to save the world using socialism were shattered on the day after the election when Obama declined to take Gordon's phone calls.

The increasingly desperate attempts of Gordon and his party to associate themselves with the new President are only matched by Obama's increasingly desperate attempts to avoid him. It's rumoured that BHO might not turn up for the G20 summit in London in April because Labour are planning to use him for pro-Gordon publicity.

Gordon can't see that the Democrats are closer to the Tories than to Labour. He's like a dumped girlfriend who just wont stop calling.
Those Eurosceptic pro-Bush neocon types on the Tory front bench you mean? That lot are precisely the type of baggage that Obama wants to jettison and i've a feeling that the Tories are also going to get a rude awakening if they think they're going to be Obama's best friends abroad.

It's no bad thing if you ask me. The 'special relationship' has always been a bit of a mirage and keeping Britain at arm's length might concentrate a few minds over here as to what Britain's role and influence in the world really is these days. (not very much.)

A few interesting links:-

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/27/barackobama.uselections2008

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...ionship+just+got+even+less+special/article.do
 
#20
I can't see the big deal here.

It was a loaner to the Shaved Chimp and then BHO decided he didn't want it.

I must admit, if I were too walk into the PM's office and saw a bust of FDR, I'd wonder what the fcuk it was doing there.

Too much being read into it I think
 

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