NYPD - Ooops.

#4
16 rounds and 10 people hit including the gunman...not bad lols. If it was me i would be happy with that ....

couldnt have been nice being the coppers there as they know the gunman had killed already.
 

maguire

LE
Book Reviewer
#5
lots of lawsuits there me thinks.
as this is the serious bit, could it not be argued that stress and the (presumably) chaos and crowds (if NYC is anythng like london) have contributed to the collateral damage? if it was me I'd be damn glad the idiot was put down on his backside so quickly without being able to finish any more people off, least of all me...a scar and the story attached to it seem a small price to pay for your life...
 
#8
We are talking America here. They sue for millions when they slip on barbeque sauce
Hardly surprising, when US hospitals will charge you about five thou to stick an Elastoplast on your finger. People frequently ascribe American lawsuits over injuries to greed; I suspect that in most cases it is more a matter of financial necessity. Roger the Rozzer, not awfully well trained and doing his best, puts a round through your leg. Assuming he hits the bone, you're talking reconstructive surgery, titanium plates, the stay in hospital (bed and board ain't cheap in these places), a bill for every anaesthetic, every antibiotic. Then there's the time off work etc.

Perhaps one of our American members could enlighten us as to how much it might cost to fix a shot-up leg (assuming you don't want to go for free healthcare to an ER (Casualty) where they'll look at their budget, sigh a little and then amputate).
 
#9
On one of the postal shooting threads I posted up some NYPD shooting stats. If I recall they average a 60% hit rate at under 6ft (the range most trouble happens at), it gets worse rapidly from further out. And NYPD get regular range time and are probably better trained than a lot of police departments. Folk get scared when they get shot at and pistols are just difficult to shoot accurately at the best of times.

One cop in this very short incident fired 14 rounds. Judging by the very blurry video the cop who took the shooter down was at about five feet and fired several shots, he was clearly at risk of his life with a .45 in his face. There's a panicked crowd in the line of fire, his partner's backed off out of shot maybe trying to find a safer firing direction but even then it's a busy street and there is bus passing. It ain't easy being a cop, the guy could have killed them both.

Back in the day when most departments carried .38 revolvers rather than the high capacity 9mms favored by Da Yoof I assume there was much less collateral damage but I've no facts to support that.
 
#10
Hardly surprising, when US hospitals will charge you about five thou to stick an Elastoplast on your finger...
Mate of mine's wife in NJ had a premature baby, insurance bill came to $180K, $5K just for the epidural. It's pure banditry.

Just to contrast, another mate had a baby in France, kidney complications, excellent service including multiple consultations and a week or so in hospital. She wasn't covered by the national insurance scheme not having worked there, bill 5K Euro.
 
#11
OK, quick Google and here we are:

Caring for a gunshot wound victim who is hospitalized for four to seven days can cost up to $56,000, according to Douglas Arvin, vice president and chief financial officer at University of Cincinnati Health.
Follow-up care at an inpatient rehabilitation facility can cost as much as $240,000 a year, said Frank Darras, an insurance attorney
I'd sue anyone I could think of to pay bills like that.

Colorado theater shooting victims face bills with wounds
 
#12
OK, quick Google and here we are:



I'd sue anyone I could think of to pay bills like that.

Colorado theater shooting victims face bills with wounds
That's about $8K a day and you have to remember this is a country were lots of folks, particularly in the poor demographics that tend to victims, don't have any medical cover.
...
Carolyn Tuft, 50, knows the feeling. She, her daughter, and seven other people were shot five years ago at a mall in Salt Lake City. Her daughter, Kirsten Hinckley, 15, died. Tuft, who was hit in the back, arm and lung, spent three weeks in the intensive care unit and had seven surgeries.
The hospital wrote off more than $100,000 in immediate care costs for Tuft, who was not insured. About $10,000 from a fund for victims and gifts from friends paid her expenses the first year after the shooting.
Since then though, Tuft, who is unemployed, has struggled to pay for the ongoing care she needs to treat chronic pain and lead poisoning from the bullet fragments still inside her.
"It's completely destroyed my credit and my life," Tuft said. "I can't rent an apartment or buy a car because of my medical bills."
She has about $12,000 worth of debt from visits to pain specialists, physical therapists, and from buying equipment to deal with her wounds.
Tuft is suing the pawn shop that sold the weapon to Sulejman Talovic, who killed five people and wounded four before being shot dead by police.
Meanwhile, debt collectors continue to call.
...
 
#13
Hardly surprising, when US hospitals will charge you about five thou to stick an Elastoplast on your finger. People frequently ascribe American lawsuits over injuries to greed; I suspect that in most cases it is more a matter of financial necessity. Roger the Rozzer, not awfully well trained and doing his best, puts a round through your leg. Assuming he hits the bone, you're talking reconstructive surgery, titanium plates, the stay in hospital (bed and board ain't cheap in these places), a bill for every anaesthetic, every antibiotic. Then there's the time off work etc.

Perhaps one of our American members could enlighten us as to how much it might cost to fix a shot-up leg (assuming you don't want to go for free healthcare to an ER (Casualty) where they'll look at their budget, sigh a little and then amputate).
I can give you some examples


about 3 years ago a MS-13 gangbanger was shot just above the right knee by a Neighbor kid with a .357 jacketed Hollowpoint. MS-13'r lopped about half a block before collapse. Told cops he didnt know who did it. Cue 4 weeks later tells cops he now knows who did it . NYPD tells him to **** off as he could be claiming anyone now. He did this turnaround as parents got a US$40,000.00 medical bill for the wound


about 10 years ago a Korean church here in Queens exploded to to a gas leak around 430am. (the white flash woke me up 4 blocks away) the church and 7 homes were destroyed. Later it transpired the Church had illegally hooked up and would not let inspectors from Con Ed in to check the main. Church sues ConEd and wins. NY City Firemen who suffered Smoke inhalation were forced by the City to sue the Families who lost their homes (they got out with whatever thay were wearing)for the cost of the firemens treatment as the city Lawyers dont want the city to have to pay for inuries on the job.

(A Friends who lost her home was rebuilt by a contractor Neighbor and the Koreans had the ****ing gall to ask her to sell it to their church for the pastors home and at under cost as they couldnt afford much.)
 
E

exmunkey

Guest
#14
Nightmare scenario coming across a shooter in a busy city, as I've said before I'm not too worried about going up a against someone with a handgun, as the chance of being hit when the shooter is stressed drops considerably. Don't know how good their FA training is but given the numbers suspect it's just range qualification.

Thoughts are with the officers and bystanders. Hopefully the officers won't get dragged over the coals and the bystanders will understand and ignore all the make a dollar calls
 
#17
From what I recall NYPD get fairly generous range time, so not as expert as JJH but probably much better than most gun toting civilians.
alib -

I suspect you are wrong as to range time and training. When I lived in the South Bronx back in the late 60's NYPD had one range located on an island off the coast of the Bronx, essentially the northernmost part of the city. I understood from cousins who were in NYPD back then that training was not that extensive. It was apparently was a logistics nightmare to organize groups to get to the range. There were around 35,000 offiers in NYPD the last I looked. I understand there is a bit of a priority to train the Emergency Service Unit that performs swat tasks as well as their usual and very varied tasks. I had a grad school classmate who had been a captain in the ESU who discussed this.

I mentioned this in the "another US Shooting" thread and an arsser called "Peeler" who is apparently NYPD says it is the same today. A shame really. The problem is not the cops, it is mayors and city councilors to blame.

I mentioned to
 
#18
alib -

I suspect you are wrong as to range time and training.
...
I found Evaluation of the New York City Police Department Firearm Training and Firearm-Discharge from Rand in 2008:
...
In-Service Training.

In-service training is particularly important to reinforce the
comprehensive training that officers received as recruits, to correct bad habits developed on the job, and to keep up with the dynamically changing law-enforcement environment. Unfortunately, officers are generally not tested on the information imparted to see whether the training was absorbed.


NYPD officers are required to requalify on their firearms twice a year. While
the requalification course meets the standards required by New York and is consistent
with national norms, shooting at paper targets on a known-distance range does not
demonstrate that the officer has mastered his or her firearm and is ready for a shooting
confrontation on the streets. While the NYPD has several advanced ranges that better
prepare officers for confrontations that may involve firearms, the size of the department
and logistical considerations prevent them from being used as part of the semiannual
requalification program for the vast majority of officers.


The goal of all training should be to prepare recruits, as well as seasoned officers,
for life as a police officer on the streets, in the subways, and in the housing developments of New York. Recruits should be required to pass proficiency standards in reallife and scenario-based tests of complex decisionmaking before they graduate from the police academy. Seasoned officers should be required to demonstrate their continued
proficiency on the most demanding real-life scenarios, just as, for example, seasoned
airline pilots are required to do.
...
Recommendations


Based on these findings, we recommend that the NYPD modify training to include
reflexive-shooting scenarios in which a stimulus, such as the cry, “He’s got a gun!” or
the sound of guns going off, is included to sensitize officers to cues that may not be
reliable and to teach them that such cues may generate unwanted responses. In addition, the NYPD should have officers practice with the correct decisionmaking process to reduce the use of inappropriate decision making shortcuts.
Finally, the NYPD should make sure that all officers involved in a shooting
undergo the mandatory, one-day refresher course at the range.
I read that as could do better, so I think you are right.
 

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