Not Very Glorious Naval Action Again

maninblack

LE
Book Reviewer
#1
I see the RN have been operating under their ridiculous rules of engagement again by letting a group of Somali pirates get away scot free.

Oddly enough the MOD are trumpeting this as something to be proud of.

Pirates

On a positive note they can tell the Commissars of New Labour that the right to a diverse lifestyle for Smoalians has been maintained.
 
#2
maninblack said:
I see the RN have been operating under their ridiculous rules of engagement again by letting a group of Somali pirates get away scot free.

Oddly enough the MOD are trumpeting this as something to be proud of.

Pirates

On a positive note they can tell the Commissars of New Labour that the right to a diverse lifestyle for Smoalians has been maintained.
Yes, because by detaining them on a British warship and thereby allowing them to claim asylum here would provoke less outrage.

Unfortunately, we can't just put them in the Lynx and drop them out at altitude a la Argentinian dissidents.

Incidentally, this was already flagged by Ouyin elsewhere and consensus was that at least the Andrew are getting into some action.
 
#3
To be fair maninblack, it's all very well the RN capturing them, but Kenya refuses to take any more pirates for tribunal, the Seychelles takes only a limited number, and no one else seems keen. So what does one do?
 
#6
Well until there is a improved 'international' perhaps combined effort to deal with this issue then the 'Pirate issue' will never end,

I'm sure the RN are just as frustrated as others due to 'legal implications' which restrict certain actions?

Add to note: target practice would'nt be the done thing in international waters!
 
#7
theprior said:
To be fair maninblack, it's all very well the RN capturing them, but Kenya refuses to take any more pirates for tribunal, the Seychelles takes only a limited number, and no one else seems keen. So what does one do?
They're pirates. Bolox to the international law makers. Just sink the fookers.
 

maninblack

LE
Book Reviewer
#8
They could herd them into the bow of their boat so they are safe then put a 30mm round through the engine and wave them goodbye.

They fancy themselves as men of the sea, let them commune with nature.

Alternatively, inform them they are to disarm, count to 10 then open fire when they refuse. All perfectly legal and it helps fish stock by providing additional food.

Everyone is a winner.
 
#10
There's already a thread on this subject at www.arrse.co.uk/Forums/viewtopic/t=147941.html but, for the benefit of those who deal in realities, the RN's mandate was satisfied on this occasion although the perpetrators escaped after being foiled in their crime. I imagine the CO and ship's company of HMS Chatham and other warships involved in Operation ATALANTA feel just as frustrated as the rest of us but, unlike all the bloodthirsty armchair warriors, they are bound by the requirement to use 'reasonable force' and the other legal complexities involved:

House of Lords European Union Committee - Twelfth Report - Combating Somali Piracy: the EU's Naval Operation Atalanta
House of Lords website 14 Apr 2010 said:
Rules of engagement: detention and prosecution of suspected pirates

34. Atalanta military personnel can arrest, detain and transfer persons who are suspected of having committed or who have committed acts of piracy or armed robbery in the areas where they are present. They can seize the vessels of the pirates or vessels captured following an act of piracy or an armed robbery and which are in the hands of the pirates, as well as the goods on board. The suspects can be prosecuted by an EU Member State or by Kenya under an agreement signed with the EU on 6 March 2009 giving the Kenyan authorities the right to prosecute. An exchange of letters concluded on 30 October 2009 between the EU and the Republic of Seychelles allows the transfer of suspected pirates and armed robbers apprehended by Atalanta in the operation area. This arrangement constitutes an important new contribution to the counter-piracy efforts[8]. On 22 March 2010 the Council of the EU authorised High Representative Baroness Ashton of Upholland to open negotiations with Mauritius, Mozambique, South Africa, Tanzania and Uganda with a view to concluding further transfer agreements[9].

35. Commander Clive Dow RN told us that Atalanta was a law enforcement operation rather than a war against pirates or an armed conflict. It abided by the law of the sea, under customary international law, the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) and the Suppression of Unlawful Acts Convention. The principle of "reasonable force" applied[10]. Lethal force could only be employed where there was a threat to life (QQ 112-3). On the rules of engagement, Rear Admiral Hudson assured us that Atalanta had the necessary flexibility to disrupt, deter and arrest pirates (Q 112).

36. Commander Dow said that Atalanta restricted its prosecutions of suspects to pirates who were caught in the act rather than those who looked suspicious on the basis of their equipment. This was due to the arrangements for prosecution, generally in Kenya and the Seychelles. Cases were selected to maximise the chances of conviction, based on witness evidence of an act of piracy. There was a comprehensive approach when it came to prosecutions across the military operations as well as in the political arena. The EU mission worked closely with the UN Office on Drugs and Crime, which was charged with assisting capacity building, not only in Kenya and the Seychelles, but in any other regional area where prosecutions might take place. However it focused its efforts on building capacity in Somalia, Somaliland[11] and Puntland. This ensured that prosecutions were efficiently managed and that human rights standards were met. However, this could not be done "in isolation" for pirates. Capacity building in regional jurisdictions had to apply to the whole system (QQ 113, 148).

37. We asked our witnesses whether human rights standards were being met for the transfer, prosecution and detention of suspected and convicted pirates. Lord Malloch-Brown (then FCO Minister) assured us that Government policy was not to allow transfer to third states of suspected pirates for prosecution unless the Government were satisfied that they would not be subject to cruel treatment, the death penalty or face a trial which was grossly unfair. The UK had signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) with Kenya in December 2008, and the Government's legal advisers were completely satisfied that suitable guarantees were in place on the sentencing of pirates and their conditions of detention. The EU had since then agreed a similar MoU with Kenya as well as an exchange of letters with the Seychelles authorities for the transfer of suspected pirates (Q 62, p87).

38. Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead said that there were 117 pirates in Kenyan prisons, 75 of whom were transferred by Atalanta for prosecution. A further 11 pirate suspects would be transferred to the Seychelles by Atalanta for prosecution (Q 283; p 83).

39. Speaking of the different organisations operating to counter piracy in the area, Mr Alderwick said that the advantage of the EU was that it had a variety of political instruments; it could enter into political agreements with states in the region, both as a collective entity and through its Member States. By contrast, NATO was seen as a military organisation. The EU has put in place status of forces agreements with states in the region. These acted as a "force multiplier", as Atalanta could operate out of Djibouti and Oman. The EU had also negotiated legal frameworks for the prosecution of pirates, such as that with Kenya. Atalanta had adopted a comprehensive and inter-agency approach, by engaging ship-owners, operators, the British Chamber of Shipping and the International Maritime Organisation (IMO). This approach was key to addressing the piracy issue (QQ 160-1).

40. We welcome the fact that the rules of engagement of Operation Atalanta are sufficiently robust to allow it to carry out its mandate.

41. We welcome the agreements that the EU has signed with Kenya and the Seychelles for the transfer and prosecution of suspected pirates, and the Government's assurance that these agreements safeguard the human rights of those detained. We commend Kenya and the Seychelles for showing leadership in addressing a regional problem, although we are concerned by recent reports that Kenya is considering no longer accepting suspected pirates from international naval forces. The Government and the EU should continue to assist both states in building the capacity of their judicial and penal systems to cope with the increased demand.

42. We also welcome the Council of the EU's agreement to open negotiations on similar arrangements with other countries in the region.
In this case, HMS Chatham secured the safe release of innocent crewmen and their vessel without any bloodshed. I'm sure that any practical suggestions for stopping a highly manoeuvrable fast-moving boat on the high seas, short of opening fire or incurring possible loss of life by other means, would be welcome.
 
#11
theprior said:
To be fair maninblack, it's all very well the RN capturing them, but Kenya refuses to take any more pirates for tribunal, the Seychelles takes only a limited number, and no one else seems keen. So what does one do?

 
#12
Semper_Flexibilis said:
theprior said:
To be fair maninblack, it's all very well the RN capturing them, but Kenya refuses to take any more pirates for tribunal, the Seychelles takes only a limited number, and no one else seems keen. So what does one do?
Advanced swimming test? any stroke you like gents, don't touch the bottom or sides until you reach Somalia - in your own time, JUMP!
 
#13
Somewhere in a Royal Navy stores depot will be the MK I plank, pirates for the walking of. Just need to pop it in DHL and get it fettled up on, presumably the poop deck. If indeed that is the appropriate deck for plank ops.

Then some burly bosun's mate called, oh, "Mr Frobisher" has a ring to it, will be instructed to make them walk the plank...
 

maninblack

LE
Book Reviewer
#14
Dunservin said:
There's already a thread on this subject at www.arrse.co.uk/Forums/viewtopic/t=147941.html but, for the benefit of those who deal in realities, the RN's mandate was satisfied on this occasion although the perpetrators escaped after being foiled in their crime. I imagine the CO and ship's company of HMS Chatham and other warships involved in Operation ATALANTA feel just as frustrated as the rest of us but, unlike all the bloodthirsty armchair warriors, they are bound by the requirement to use 'reasonable force' and the other legal complexities involved:

House of Lords European Union Committee - Twelfth Report - Combating Somali Piracy: the EU's Naval Operation Atalanta
House of Lords website 14 Apr 2010 said:
Rules of engagement: detention and prosecution of suspected pirates

34. Atalanta military personnel can arrest, detain and transfer persons who are suspected of having committed or who have committed acts of piracy or armed robbery in the areas where they are present. They can seize the vessels of the pirates or vessels captured following an act of piracy or an armed robbery and which are in the hands of the pirates, as well as the goods on board. The suspects can be prosecuted by an EU Member State or by Kenya under an agreement signed with the EU on 6 March 2009 giving the Kenyan authorities the right to prosecute. An exchange of letters concluded on 30 October 2009 between the EU and the Republic of Seychelles allows the transfer of suspected pirates and armed robbers apprehended by Atalanta in the operation area. This arrangement constitutes an important new contribution to the counter-piracy efforts[8]. On 22 March 2010 the Council of the EU authorised High Representative Baroness Ashton of Upholland to open negotiations with Mauritius, Mozambique, South Africa, Tanzania and Uganda with a view to concluding further transfer agreements[9].

35. Commander Clive Dow RN told us that Atalanta was a law enforcement operation rather than a war against pirates or an armed conflict. It abided by the law of the sea, under customary international law, the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) and the Suppression of Unlawful Acts Convention. The principle of "reasonable force" applied[10]. Lethal force could only be employed where there was a threat to life (QQ 112-3). On the rules of engagement, Rear Admiral Hudson assured us that Atalanta had the necessary flexibility to disrupt, deter and arrest pirates (Q 112).

36. Commander Dow said that Atalanta restricted its prosecutions of suspects to pirates who were caught in the act rather than those who looked suspicious on the basis of their equipment. This was due to the arrangements for prosecution, generally in Kenya and the Seychelles. Cases were selected to maximise the chances of conviction, based on witness evidence of an act of piracy. There was a comprehensive approach when it came to prosecutions across the military operations as well as in the political arena. The EU mission worked closely with the UN Office on Drugs and Crime, which was charged with assisting capacity building, not only in Kenya and the Seychelles, but in any other regional area where prosecutions might take place. However it focused its efforts on building capacity in Somalia, Somaliland[11] and Puntland. This ensured that prosecutions were efficiently managed and that human rights standards were met. However, this could not be done "in isolation" for pirates. Capacity building in regional jurisdictions had to apply to the whole system (QQ 113, 148).

37. We asked our witnesses whether human rights standards were being met for the transfer, prosecution and detention of suspected and convicted pirates. Lord Malloch-Brown (then FCO Minister) assured us that Government policy was not to allow transfer to third states of suspected pirates for prosecution unless the Government were satisfied that they would not be subject to cruel treatment, the death penalty or face a trial which was grossly unfair. The UK had signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) with Kenya in December 2008, and the Government's legal advisers were completely satisfied that suitable guarantees were in place on the sentencing of pirates and their conditions of detention. The EU had since then agreed a similar MoU with Kenya as well as an exchange of letters with the Seychelles authorities for the transfer of suspected pirates (Q 62, p87).

38. Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead said that there were 117 pirates in Kenyan prisons, 75 of whom were transferred by Atalanta for prosecution. A further 11 pirate suspects would be transferred to the Seychelles by Atalanta for prosecution (Q 283; p 83).

39. Speaking of the different organisations operating to counter piracy in the area, Mr Alderwick said that the advantage of the EU was that it had a variety of political instruments; it could enter into political agreements with states in the region, both as a collective entity and through its Member States. By contrast, NATO was seen as a military organisation. The EU has put in place status of forces agreements with states in the region. These acted as a "force multiplier", as Atalanta could operate out of Djibouti and Oman. The EU had also negotiated legal frameworks for the prosecution of pirates, such as that with Kenya. Atalanta had adopted a comprehensive and inter-agency approach, by engaging ship-owners, operators, the British Chamber of Shipping and the International Maritime Organisation (IMO). This approach was key to addressing the piracy issue (QQ 160-1).

40. We welcome the fact that the rules of engagement of Operation Atalanta are sufficiently robust to allow it to carry out its mandate.

41. We welcome the agreements that the EU has signed with Kenya and the Seychelles for the transfer and prosecution of suspected pirates, and the Government's assurance that these agreements safeguard the human rights of those detained. We commend Kenya and the Seychelles for showing leadership in addressing a regional problem, although we are concerned by recent reports that Kenya is considering no longer accepting suspected pirates from international naval forces. The Government and the EU should continue to assist both states in building the capacity of their judicial and penal systems to cope with the increased demand.

42. We also welcome the Council of the EU's agreement to open negotiations on similar arrangements with other countries in the region.
In this case, HMS Chatham secured the safe release of innocent crewmen and their vessel without any bloodshed. I'm sure that any practical suggestions for stopping a highly manoeuvrable fast-moving boat on the high seas, short of opening fire or incurring possible loss of life by other means, would be welcome.
And when you have finished with the politically correct regulations that got us into a situation where piracy is regarded as a route to political asylum, perhaps you and your mates can have a whip round to fit all the warships with a "naughty step." The pirates can be made to sit on the "naughty step" for up to 3 minutes if they steal another ship and kidnap the crew before getting a hug from the UN representative and asked to play nicely in future.
 
#15
maninblack said:
Dunservin said:
There's already a thread on this subject at www.arrse.co.uk/Forums/viewtopic/t=147941.html but, for the benefit of those who deal in realities, the RN's mandate was satisfied on this occasion although the perpetrators escaped after being foiled in their crime. I imagine the CO and ship's company of HMS Chatham and other warships involved in Operation ATALANTA feel just as frustrated as the rest of us but, unlike all the bloodthirsty armchair warriors, they are bound by the requirement to use 'reasonable force' and the other legal complexities involved:

House of Lords European Union Committee - Twelfth Report - Combating Somali Piracy: the EU's Naval Operation Atalanta
House of Lords website 14 Apr 2010 said:
Rules of engagement: detention and prosecution of suspected pirates

34. Atalanta military personnel can arrest, detain and transfer persons who are suspected of having committed or who have committed acts of piracy or armed robbery in the areas where they are present. They can seize the vessels of the pirates or vessels captured following an act of piracy or an armed robbery and which are in the hands of the pirates, as well as the goods on board. The suspects can be prosecuted by an EU Member State or by Kenya under an agreement signed with the EU on 6 March 2009 giving the Kenyan authorities the right to prosecute. An exchange of letters concluded on 30 October 2009 between the EU and the Republic of Seychelles allows the transfer of suspected pirates and armed robbers apprehended by Atalanta in the operation area. This arrangement constitutes an important new contribution to the counter-piracy efforts[8]. On 22 March 2010 the Council of the EU authorised High Representative Baroness Ashton of Upholland to open negotiations with Mauritius, Mozambique, South Africa, Tanzania and Uganda with a view to concluding further transfer agreements[9].

35. Commander Clive Dow RN told us that Atalanta was a law enforcement operation rather than a war against pirates or an armed conflict. It abided by the law of the sea, under customary international law, the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) and the Suppression of Unlawful Acts Convention. The principle of "reasonable force" applied[10]. Lethal force could only be employed where there was a threat to life (QQ 112-3). On the rules of engagement, Rear Admiral Hudson assured us that Atalanta had the necessary flexibility to disrupt, deter and arrest pirates (Q 112).

36. Commander Dow said that Atalanta restricted its prosecutions of suspects to pirates who were caught in the act rather than those who looked suspicious on the basis of their equipment. This was due to the arrangements for prosecution, generally in Kenya and the Seychelles. Cases were selected to maximise the chances of conviction, based on witness evidence of an act of piracy. There was a comprehensive approach when it came to prosecutions across the military operations as well as in the political arena. The EU mission worked closely with the UN Office on Drugs and Crime, which was charged with assisting capacity building, not only in Kenya and the Seychelles, but in any other regional area where prosecutions might take place. However it focused its efforts on building capacity in Somalia, Somaliland[11] and Puntland. This ensured that prosecutions were efficiently managed and that human rights standards were met. However, this could not be done "in isolation" for pirates. Capacity building in regional jurisdictions had to apply to the whole system (QQ 113, 148).

37. We asked our witnesses whether human rights standards were being met for the transfer, prosecution and detention of suspected and convicted pirates. Lord Malloch-Brown (then FCO Minister) assured us that Government policy was not to allow transfer to third states of suspected pirates for prosecution unless the Government were satisfied that they would not be subject to cruel treatment, the death penalty or face a trial which was grossly unfair. The UK had signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) with Kenya in December 2008, and the Government's legal advisers were completely satisfied that suitable guarantees were in place on the sentencing of pirates and their conditions of detention. The EU had since then agreed a similar MoU with Kenya as well as an exchange of letters with the Seychelles authorities for the transfer of suspected pirates (Q 62, p87).

38. Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead said that there were 117 pirates in Kenyan prisons, 75 of whom were transferred by Atalanta for prosecution. A further 11 pirate suspects would be transferred to the Seychelles by Atalanta for prosecution (Q 283; p 83).

39. Speaking of the different organisations operating to counter piracy in the area, Mr Alderwick said that the advantage of the EU was that it had a variety of political instruments; it could enter into political agreements with states in the region, both as a collective entity and through its Member States. By contrast, NATO was seen as a military organisation. The EU has put in place status of forces agreements with states in the region. These acted as a "force multiplier", as Atalanta could operate out of Djibouti and Oman. The EU had also negotiated legal frameworks for the prosecution of pirates, such as that with Kenya. Atalanta had adopted a comprehensive and inter-agency approach, by engaging ship-owners, operators, the British Chamber of Shipping and the International Maritime Organisation (IMO). This approach was key to addressing the piracy issue (QQ 160-1).

40. We welcome the fact that the rules of engagement of Operation Atalanta are sufficiently robust to allow it to carry out its mandate.

41. We welcome the agreements that the EU has signed with Kenya and the Seychelles for the transfer and prosecution of suspected pirates, and the Government's assurance that these agreements safeguard the human rights of those detained. We commend Kenya and the Seychelles for showing leadership in addressing a regional problem, although we are concerned by recent reports that Kenya is considering no longer accepting suspected pirates from international naval forces. The Government and the EU should continue to assist both states in building the capacity of their judicial and penal systems to cope with the increased demand.

42. We also welcome the Council of the EU's agreement to open negotiations on similar arrangements with other countries in the region.
In this case, HMS Chatham secured the safe release of innocent crewmen and their vessel without any bloodshed. I'm sure that any practical suggestions for stopping a highly manoeuvrable fast-moving boat on the high seas, short of opening fire or incurring possible loss of life by other means, would be welcome.
And when you have finished with the politically correct regulations that got us into a situation where piracy is regarded as a route to political asylum, perhaps you and your mates can have a whip round to fit all the warships with a "naughty step." The pirates can be made to sit on the "naughty step" for up to 3 minutes if they steal another ship and kidnap the crew before getting a hug from the UN representative and asked to play nicely in future.
Cough, cough, splutter. That's half a glass of GnT down me shirt. Thanks! :lol:
 
#16
Until the bleeding heart, hand wringing cunts, who infest many of our countries governments & establishments, realise that piracy will only continue to increase unless FIRM & FINAL steps are taken to eliminate it! I am sure that the Chinese warships in the area will not bother to heed the useless UN "human rights" bollox and just blow the bastards out of the water as they so richly deserve! :twisted: :twisted:
 
#17
ex_colonial said:
Until the bleeding heart, hand wringing cunts, who infest many of our countries governments & establishments, realise that piracy will only continue to increase unless FIRM & FINAL steps are taken to eliminate it! I am sure that the Chinese warships in the area will not bother to heed the useless UN "human rights" bollox and just blow the bastards out of the water as they so richly deserve! :twisted: :twisted:


Agreed, encore!, encore!. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
 
#18
ex_colonial said:
Until the bleeding heart, hand wringing cunts, who infest many of our countries governments & establishments, realise that piracy will only continue to increase unless FIRM & FINAL steps are taken to eliminate it! I am sure that the Chinese warships in the area will not bother to heed the useless UN "human rights" bollox and just blow the bastards out of the water as they so richly deserve! :twisted: :twisted:
A bit like the Indian Navy, you mean?

Indian navy 'sank Thai trawler'
BBC News 24 Nov 2008 said:
The owner of a Thai fishing trawler has said the Indian navy sank it off Somalia's coast last week after wrongly assuming it was a pirate "mother ship". Wicharn Sirichaiekawat said the Indian frigate had attacked the Ekawat Nava 5 while it was being hijacked by pirates. He said one of the crew had been found alive after six days in the Gulf of Aden, but that another 14 were missing...
The 15 Thai fishermen were tied up below decks. I'm no bleeding heart but look at the uproar when a single innocent man was shot by the police in good faith on a London tube train and then imagine the headlines if an RN warship had been involved in the above incident. To date, very few innocent civilians have been harmed by Somali pirates whereas several have been killed by would-be rescuers. As I've said before, with friends like that, who needs enemies?

This is real life for the guys on the spot, not a computer game with a replay option.
 

maninblack

LE
Book Reviewer
#19
Sadly unless you eliminate pirates replay is exactly what happens.

Perforate half a dozen boats with the pirates on board and the problem will reduce rapidly.

Think, chaps.....when you were bullied at school did it stop because a right on liberal teacher with a sociology degree counselled your bully or did it stop when you or your big brother finally ripped his spleen out through his left ear?
 
#20
theprior said:
To be fair maninblack, it's all very well the RN capturing them, but Kenya refuses to take any more pirates for tribunal, the Seychelles takes only a limited number, and no one else seems keen. So what does one do?
Mafia Cement Shoes= Somali biodegradable reef
 

Similar threads

Latest Threads

Top