Not the Army an old chesnut.

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#1
:? Just had to add my two pence worth.

Twenty three years in the NHS ambulance service. We used to knock St John Ambulance as nerds etc. You know they do a good job: there are loads of events that could not take place without them!
The ACF not part of the army, correct, but affiliated to it. A lot of the young people we train will become part of it and some of you had better hope we do a good job because they will be watching your backs when the sh*t hits the fan. So why don't we all stop worrying about who belongs to what and just get on doing the best we can to support each other in what ever way we can. I am nuts about being in green, wanted to join the Army but couldn't, did a bit for the TA but now at 51 I'm having a great time with the ACF.
Final thought, when the regs, reserves and TA have been exhausted where do you suppose they will look next? Check out the one hundred and fifty years of the Army Cadet Force for the answer.

Kind regards,

Bisley
 
#2
I don't think anyone from the ACF will be watching anyone's back when the 'sh1t hits the fan', at least not until they have been trained properly and are no longer too young to be trusted. Yes you do a valid job getting kids off the streets and giving them some self respect, but don't ever get yourself confused with the idea that you are training people for when 'the sh1t hits the fan'. It's just not the case.
 
#4
Just to throw this into the frame:

Was watching something on Discovery Channel the other night about the Russians taking Berlin in '45 and the Russian 'after-action' report type thing reported that the toughest resistance they faced was from the Hitler Youth!
 
#5
Unsurprisingly, you have completely missed the point and homed in on one misrepresented piece of information.
Do you know what we teach our cadets now? Do you appreciate that the values we help instill into them is part of the very core of that nature that will help them to grow into the most responsible of adults. I was not suggesting that we train them to be soldiers, but we do help develop their character. However whilst on the subject of who does what, its not only soldiers who risk their lives on a day to day basis. So lets stick to the point I was trying to make about stop bitching about who does what.
 
#6
For cadets entering the 'real' army it is irrelevant how good a job an ACF instructor does, as they are all retrained from scratch any way, however a former cadet is at an advantage in basic training as alot of what he will be taught will not be absolutely new (drill, personal admin, map and compass to name but three)

The very real benefit of the ACF is what it does for some of the kids that walk throughthe door of a det. The kids that could go one of two ways, either join cadets and keep out of trouble and eventually become a decent citizen if not necessarrily a good one, or end up a little sh1t and eventually in the nick.

If and AI can keep one lad or girl for that matter on the straight and narrow then it is a job well done.

Zippy483
 
#7
zippy483 said:
For cadets entering the 'real' army it is irrelevant how good a job an ACF instructor does, as they are all retrained from scratch any way, however a former cadet is at an advantage in basic training as alot of what he will be taught will not be absolutely new (drill, personal admin, map and compass to name but three)

The very real benefit of the ACF is what it does for some of the kids that walk throughthe door of a det. The kids that could go one of two ways, either join cadets and keep out of trouble and eventually become a decent citizen if not necessarrily a good one, or end up a little sh1t and eventually in the nick.

Thanks Zippy, I really do not want to irritate anyone, it was just a personal point of view. I know that the Real Army will teach everyone the same from scratch. The point I was and am still trying to make is that we give our young people skills which will be enhanced by their basic training. E.G. Section attacks, ambushes, camo and concealment, leadership skills, fieldcraft, first aid, L98 shooting skills, LSW shooting skills, camraderie, humour, determination, self reliance to name but a few. Were not a recruiting agency but a lot of our cadets who commence at twelve and leave at eighteen will join the regs or TA. I hope that some small part of what I and many of my colleagues who are also in many cases ex regs and TA have taught will in some small way help keep them safe.

Regards,

Bisley
If and AI can keep one lad or girl for that matter on the straight and narrow then it is a job well done.

Zippy483
 
#8
Do you know what we teach our cadets now?
1912 tactics?

I must agree the acf does a damn fine job of keeping some of the scallies off the street and makes decent citizens out of them, but it is in dire need of updating 'army-wise'; obviously the gphand-cannon doesnt really help with the tactics side of thing and so on, but as someone said they'll get re-trained anyway. I'm all for the acf and other cadet services, in a country where the armed forces arent seen through rose tinted glasses I think what they teach (discipline, cadet & the community) etc are bloody good, and even many of those that dont go on to join the regs/ta retain at least a semblence of what they were taught regarding personal traits, and have a fairly open mind to the forces
 
#10
"I am nuts about being in green, wanted to join the Army but couldn't, did a bit for the TA but now at 51 I'm having a great time with the ACF."

So not in the Army, then. Please don't confuse the two. If it does Ops it's Army, if it doesn't it isn't.

"Was watching something on Discovery Channel the other night about the Russians taking Berlin in '45 and the Russian 'after-action' report type thing reported that the toughest resistance they faced was from the Hitler Youth!"

The relevance being? Are you suggesting that if things got too tricky at the CIMIC house in Al Amarah that we should crash out our elite defensive troops - the ACF?

It's stuff like this that gives you a bad name, guys. As a regular, Walts really wind me up. Be proud of what you are, but don't pretend for a minute that you are anything else. All this talk of being the last line of defence and creating super soldiers is utterly walt and detracts from the genuine good work that you do.
 
#11
Was watching something on Discovery Channel the other night about the Russians taking Berlin in '45 and the Russian 'after-action' report type thing reported that the toughest resistance they faced was from the Hitler Youth!"
The relevance being? Are you suggesting that if things got too tricky at the CIMIC house in Al Amarah that we should crash out our elite defensive troops - the ACF?
:D Not at all. I was merely sh1t stirring. :wink:
 
#12
BedIn said:
"I am nuts about being in green, wanted to join the Army but couldn't, did a bit for the TA but now at 51 I'm having a great time with the ACF."

So not in the Army, then. Please don't confuse the two. If it does Ops it's Army, if it doesn't it isn't.

No, not in the Army. Not really wanting to upset anyone either. I may have wandered off the path a bit with my original posting but it would take a lot of writing to try and explain exactly what I was getting at. Recently read a report about a young soldier in Iraq, won the Military Cross (ex Cadet). Ex cadets are reputedly longer serving soldiers than those recruited straight from civvy street. Draw your own conclusions about that.

"Was watching something on Discovery Channel the other night about the Russians taking Berlin in '45 and the Russian 'after-action' report type thing reported that the toughest resistance they faced was from the Hitler Youth!"

The relevance being? Are you suggesting that if things got too tricky at the CIMIC house in Al Amarah that we should crash out our elite defensive troops - the ACF?

It's not my place to speak for the mod. However, the relevance being that young people are more impressionable and can be manipulated for good or evil. They also tend to have less fear making them automatically more dangerous.

It's stuff like this that gives you a bad name, guys. As a regular, Walts really wind me up. Be proud of what you are, but don't pretend for a minute that you are anything else. All this talk of being the last line of defence and creating super soldiers is utterly walt and detracts from the genuine good work that you do.
Thank you for the vote of confidence on the work we do. There hasn't been a war for sixty years that has tested our countries resources to the limits. If there was, we wouldn't be the special play. We would be the last line of defence.

I have more respect for real soldiers than you could ever imagine and I did not want to continue a debate which undermines my original intention, which was to underline the respect for the role that each of us plays in the overall welfare of our country.

Respectfully yours,


Bisley.
 
#14
Bisley, what you imply or intended to when you started this thread, the title of the thread says volumes.

"Not the Army, an old chestnut". Old it is and a 'chestnut' it may be, but it is true, the ACF was never and never will be the army. It is no more than a 'youth organization' doing it's bit to look after a small proportion of the youth of the country. It is not a military organization, it is not a major source providing the military of tomorrow and it is not training soldiers.

As has been mentioned on here before, the army is happy to support the activities of the ACF, but it is not happy with members of the ACF, their leaders or supporters standing there making over inflated claims about what they are and what they do. It does more damage than any amount of good will can hope to repair.
 
#15
I'm still getting the hang of this forum and I repeat again that I did not intend to offend anyone.
Not the Army, an old chesnut was intended to mean: why is it, whenever you see debates of this kind, certain people feel the need to pidgeon hole everyone else. Not only do certain people wish to allocate everyone else but they have to do so in a way that somehow demeans them. I gave the example of The NHS ambulance service and St John Ambulance Brigade. It used to be Weekend Warriors as oppossed to real soldiers.
It is very nice of you to be willing to support our puntive efforts but I assure you if for no other reason than its what the Cadets join for, we attempt to be as military as we are allowed, and as professional as we must. I got quite a shock when I turned up for my initial training. I thought I had stepped back twenty years and was back at Aldershot. My ITC at Wathgil Camp opened my eyes further, our instructors were both regs and they treated us well provided we maintained military discipline.
I recently completed my small bore range course, one of my instructors was a WO2 from the SAS. We have an excellent recruiting sergeant who comes to the det to help and offer advice. You see, we know who we are and what we are. None of us think were squadies in waiting, most of the guys are ex forces anyway, from all of the various disciplines. A lot of cadets that I have known come from disafected backgrounds and broken homes. The first thing I tell them is that they are part of the big green family, (but you would probably think that was just corny) funny thing is they often come back to visit us and share their experiences.
My unit affiliates itself to the Cheshire's we come under the auspices of 42 Brigade North West. Our funding comes from the Goverment and my boss is the secretary of state. I am a youth leader in C95, I know what I am.
I would urge you to read the history of the ACF as it makes facinating reading.

Once again I sign off with respect to you and all other soldiers who defend our democracy and peace.
 
#17
ready-wait-out,

Nope, but I was in Iraq at the time and I am Infantry. Using the CIMIC house as a metaphor for a desperate situation and one where you don't need CCF.
 
#18
Plant-Pilot said:
Bisley, what you imply or intended to when you started this thread, the title of the thread says volumes.

"Not the Army, an old chestnut". Old it is and a 'chestnut' it may be, but it is true, the ACF was never and never will be the army. It is no more than a 'youth organization' doing it's bit to look after a small proportion of the youth of the country. It is not a military organization, it is not a major source providing the military of tomorrow and it is not training soldiers.

As has been mentioned on here before, the army is happy to support the activities of the ACF, but it is not happy with members of the ACF, their leaders or supporters standing there making over inflated claims about what they are and what they do. It does more damage than any amount of good will can hope to repair.
Hear, hear.
 
#19
Thank you for the vote of confidence on the work we do. There hasn't been a war for sixty years that has tested our countries resources to the limits. If there was, we wouldn't be the special play. We would be the last line of defence.
I'm sorry to p1ss on your parade, but even if this country was invaded we would never use the cadets as our last line of defence, we wouldn't even use the OTC. Our nation is a liberal democracy and we would never justify to our own people the neccessity of deploying kids to fight, in nazi Germany maybe, but not in Britian.

I remeber my AIs in the CCF telling me the same bullsh1t about us being the last line of defence. Its rubbish, there isn't even enough rifles and ammo to mount a 'last ditch defence a la hitler youth' Are you seriously telling me the politicians in all good conscience would committ 15 year old kids with no decent training a one rifle between three to defend this nation from the ravaging hordes if the 'shit hit the fan'? I think not.

Rant over.
 
#20
I remeber my AIs in the CCF telling me the same bullsh1t about us being the last line of defence. Its rubbish, there isn't even enough rifles and ammo to mount a 'last ditch defence a la hitler youth' Are you seriously telling me the politicians in all good conscience would committ 15 year old kids with no decent training a one rifle between three to defend this nation from the ravaging hordes if the 's*** hit the fan'? I think not.

Rant over.[/quote]

I think my original train of thought has been undermined sufficiently. 8O With such a wealth of knowlege as you guys have, who for some reason trawl the pages of the ACF forum, searching for ways to put us mere mortals in our place, my mind is put at rest.
 
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