Not quite as Sufi...

Nehustan

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#1
...as Sufis should be...

BBC said:
Iran police battle Sufi Muslims

Around 180 Sufi Muslims have been arrested in Iran after attacking a Shia mosque where a cleric labelled their religion "illegitimate", say reports.
The confrontation in the western city of Boroujerd led to a shootout between the Sufis and police that reportedly left about 80 people injured.

Sufis are tolerated in the Islamic Republic though some religious leaders have branded them "a danger to Islam".

About 1,000 Sufis were held last year in clashes at Iran's holy city of Qom....Sufis attacked a Shia mosque after a cleric said their lodge should be shut down.
Well that type of behaviour is really going to work in Iran, smart cookies :roll:

It reminds of a statement attributed to one of Salahadin's men about the execution of some Latin knights...

'Salahadin had the Sufis execute them'

'Sufis??? What do Sufis know of swords?'

'Exactly'
 

Nehustan

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#3
ExplodingTrousers said:
Martially inclined Sufis are hardly new?
Turk?

I think that Martial Muslims inclined to Sufism is as you point out nothing new. However Sufism itself is more inclined to metaphysical pursuits rather than martial arts. Ironically I have a book at home called 'Sufi Chivalry' which outlines a Chivalric code, but (and I think it was in this book) that it reveals that the Sufis were known as 'The secret Christians' as a result of their usual path; it doesn't infer a rejection of Muhammad as an added affinity to the teachings of Jesus.

Re: the article an Imam threatens to close their lodge, so they attack a mosque and get their lodge destroyed. Seems a wee bit light of Sufic wisdom to me...
 
#5
Janissary; Bektashi-dominated to the end, so I understood. I'd be surprised if they didn't feature in this book, oddly enough; who wrote it?

Re the article; maybe they know something we don't? Maybe there's a batini aspect to this we're missing... :wink:
 

Nehustan

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#8
I think there's a tradition that there were some old wise ones who used to sit against the wall of the prophet's mosque in Medina during the time of the prophet, can't recall where I read that, but I think they are attributed as the first Sufis...so year 0 ;)
 
#9
Nehustan said:
Haven't a clue but it could well be. IIRC at least several of the early Ottoman Sultans took a fair amount of interest in the school of thought and up until the early 1600s the Empire was pretty much the mutts nuts all things considered.
 

Nehustan

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#10
Brick said:
Nehustan said:
Haven't a clue but it could well be. IIRC at least several of the early Ottoman Sultans took a fair amount of interest in the school of thought and up until the early 1600s the Empire was pretty much the mutts nuts all things considered.
The Janissaries that ET spoke off where actually often adopted Christian orphans; they were meant to fiercely nutty and loyal. I think I read somewhere that it was around the same time as they were allowed to marry and spawn children that the Ottoman empire went to pot...
 
#11
The use of the word 'Lodge' is interesting. Is someone trying to draw them into the Dan Brown milieu?
 

Nehustan

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#12
Purple_Flash said:
The use of the word 'Lodge' is interesting. Is someone trying to draw them into the Dan Brown milieu?
I'm not sure why the usage, probably the equivalent from Arabic? That said they deal with metaphysical concepts of a similar ilk to masonry, cosmological etc. so maybe that is where the parallel comes in...
 

Biped

LE
Book Reviewer
#16
Nehustan said:
Perturbed said:
Nehustan said:
Sufi Chivalry

Written by Ibn Al-Husayn al-Sulami in AD 9 I think...
AD 9? Are you sure? If so, what calander are you using?
10th Century C.E. (936–1021) to be exact...
Well, that won't be AD9 then will it? AD - ANNO DOMINI - The year of our Lord, thus Christian.

To use the modern parlance, that will be A.E.4,449,998,000 (Age of Earth).

It sounds very much like the sort of religion that Islam was MEANT to be. Any belief system that seeks enlightement (even if it IS through spinning around on one's heels for hours), rather than crushes knowledge is O.K. in my book.
 
B

benjaminw1

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#17
Nehustan said:
Brick said:
Nehustan said:
Haven't a clue but it could well be. IIRC at least several of the early Ottoman Sultans took a fair amount of interest in the school of thought and up until the early 1600s the Empire was pretty much the mutts nuts all things considered.
The Janissaries that ET spoke off where actually often adopted Christian orphans; they were meant to fiercely nutty and loyal. I think I read somewhere that it was around the same time as they were allowed to marry and spawn children that the Ottoman empire went to pot...
Interesting use of the phrase "often adopted Christian orphans", I think "always kidnapped Christian children from their parents " would be slightly more accurate...
 
#18
benjaminw1 said:
Nehustan said:
Brick said:
Nehustan said:
Haven't a clue but it could well be. IIRC at least several of the early Ottoman Sultans took a fair amount of interest in the school of thought and up until the early 1600s the Empire was pretty much the mutts nuts all things considered.
The Janissaries that ET spoke off where actually often adopted Christian orphans; they were meant to fiercely nutty and loyal. I think I read somewhere that it was around the same time as they were allowed to marry and spawn children that the Ottoman empire went to pot...
Interesting use of the phrase "often adopted Christian orphans", I think "always kidnapped Christian children from their parents " would be slightly more accurate...
Depends on your time period - once the Janissary Corps was sufficiently established, settled and independent, their children would be 'adopted' in vaguely the manner described. It was almost certainly the increasingly dynastic nature of the Janissaries which made them such a perceived threat to the Caliphate.

As for the pacifist nature of Sufism, presumably Gordon would have had something to say, had he had the chance...
 
#19
benjaminw1 said:
Nehustan said:
Brick said:
Nehustan said:
Haven't a clue but it could well be. IIRC at least several of the early Ottoman Sultans took a fair amount of interest in the school of thought and up until the early 1600s the Empire was pretty much the mutts nuts all things considered.
The Janissaries that ET spoke off where actually often adopted Christian orphans; they were meant to fiercely nutty and loyal. I think I read somewhere that it was around the same time as they were allowed to marry and spawn children that the Ottoman empire went to pot...
Interesting use of the phrase "often adopted Christian orphans", I think "always kidnapped Christian children from their parents " would be slightly more accurate...
Interesting point there. Greek school textbooks still focus on the paidomazoma- child theft- of devshirme as an example of the Turks' utter, inherent evil. But records seem to show Muslim families (who were exempted from the 'child tax') being told off for paying Christian families to take in their children, pass them off as their own, and hand them in to the authorities... a bright lad would have a reasonable chance of success at court, being educated in the Sultan's household; the average or dim ones were trained as janissaries instead.

As for the chap in the pic (Bellini?), he was probably a Balkan Slav...

BTW, Nehu, there's a Turkish Sufi lodge in Tottenham that looks intriguing: http://youtube.com/watch?v=umPlmEWqZSo

Know anything about these chaps?
 

Nehustan

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#20
Rumpelstiltskin said:
BTW, Nehu, there's a Turkish Sufi lodge in Tottenham that looks intriguing: http://youtube.com/watch?v=umPlmEWqZSo

Know anything about these chaps?
No, not much. I tend to think of Sufism as an intellectual (or at least of the mind) pursuit, rather than getting down with the brothers; I actually consider science a Sufic art as I do maths. Looks like an interesting mob tho'. It seems to be quite a rainbow affair despite the Turkish nature of the lodge....
 

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