Northern Ireland - The British Connection?

[exsniffer]

Northern Ireland is not part of Britain and its inhabitants are not British.
Great Britain comprises Scotland, England and Wales, the United Kingdom comprises Great Britain as defined above and Northern Ireland.

Northern Ireland is not represented on the Union flag. Scotland and England are and also the kingdom of Ireland in a diagonal Red Cross that was added in 1801. This should have been removed in the late 30s when Ireland fully became a republic.
Ulster is actually 8 counties of which only 6 make up Northern Ireland.

Churchill offered the Irish premier Eamon de Valera Northern Ireland in return for Ireland joining the allies in WWII. De Valera refused as he did not want British forces back in Ireland which would have happened in a massive amount to prosecute the battle of the Atlantic.

9 counties, those remaining in the Republic are Monaghan, Cavan and Donegal.

 

[LEGZ30]

When you say ‘international border’ - are you referring to the NI/ROI border and accepting the implications this will have for NI business and lives - or are you suggesting to a custom checks at ROI ports?

If so - why would ROI agree to that? They didn’t vote for Brexit and it would mean they are no longer in the common market. I just don’t see that as reasonable or likely.

The NI/ROI border, that place where pretty much everywhere else in the world does their customs checks.

Despite all the guff that was spoken in the media before the Protocol came in what has become obvious to pretty much all of us who live here is that much more of what our businesses depend on crosses the Irish Sea than the Irish Border.

 

[LEGZ30]

And how long before the Republicans destroy the infrastructure and intimidate the staff?

As soon as they finished murdering each other over who gets the biggest share of profits from the drugs trade?

They also attack police officers and police stations, hasn't stopped policing from happening. They attack prison officers, hasn't forced the prisons to close. They have attacked journalists, hasn't stopped journalism from happening. They have attacked commercial premises, hasn't stopped retail from happening etc etc etc

 

[Cabbage_man]

The NI/ROI border, that place where pretty much everywhere else in the world does their customs checks.

Despite all the guff that was spoken in the media before the Protocol came in what has become obvious to pretty much all of us who live here is that much more of what our businesses depend on crosses the Irish Sea than the Irish Border.

Perhaps that is starting to change.

And it doesn’t mean a untied Ireland is more likely in my view.

In fact - I think there is a very strong case to be made for keeping NI in the UK in perpetuity, if it can be sold to the free thinking peoples of NI that there will be unique benefits to them in the long term by availing of access to both the EU and UK markets. What soft nationalist would vote to end that?

However - NI must equally accept that to avail of this, they can’t have free movement each way.

It’s either no customs checks with rUK but as a consequence kiss goodbye to the current EU access, and a border with ROI (and the shit that comes with it); or a feet in both camps and some customs checks (albeit making it simpler which is inevitable).

If a border is placed on the border with NI - it will surely cause huge economic damage to NI businesses and lives; not to mention stoke tensions with nationalists and if anything it could actually result in more soft nationalists who are happy with the status quo (i.e. remaining in the UK but an open border with ROI), to entrench their positions and call for a border poll.

Remember - they are also the ones who are growing in number. Better placate them for the long haul now.

Therefore, if I were an NI unionist politician - I’d be thinking of short term pain to achieve a long term win.

That must ensure you are implementing policies/strategies now which consider soft nationalists, and includes the pursuit of long term economic opportunities which set you apart from rUK and ROI, for the betterment of all.

Perhaps this is why Alliance have done so well in attracting soft nationalists.

Focusing on symbolism at all junctures is frankly tiring, pathetic, and very much last century stuff.

 

[irlsgt]

The NI/ROI border, that place where pretty much everywhere else in the world does their customs checks.

Despite all the guff that was spoken in the media before the Protocol came in what has become obvious to pretty much all of us who live here is that much more of what our businesses depend on crosses the Irish Sea than the Irish Border.

Most borders aren’t a complex because they have less crossings

There are 137 land border crossings between the EU and non-EU, there are 275 on the ROI/NI border

Reality Check: Ireland's border and Brexit - BBC News

Are there more border crossings in Ireland than the eastern border of the EU?

www.bbc.com

 

[twentyfirstoffoot]

As soon as they finished murdering each other over who gets the biggest share of profits from the drugs trade?

I didn't realise the UVF are Republicans.

They also attack police officers and police stations, hasn't stopped policing from happening. They attack prison officers, hasn't forced the prisons to close. They have attacked journalists, hasn't stopped journalism from happening. They have attacked commercial premises, hasn't stopped retail from happening etc etc etc

But customs posts were the first things abandoned in the Troubles

 

[twentyfirstoffoot]

I know all about the new big shiny MI5 building at Palace. Besides 2 public police websites, what else have you got to back your notions of a return to the troubles by the dissidents?

Plenty but I am not so stupid as to publish them on here for your gratification

To reiterate: The majority of current national security resource and attention is focused on dissident republicans as these groups pose the greatest threat.

That is they are a greater threat to the security of the UK than Islamic Terrorists. That is why the main effort of the security services is keeping tabs on the Republican threat.

 

[Kinch]

9 counties, those remaining in the Republic are Monaghan, Cavan and Donegal.

What is often forgotten is that the IRA, never remotely interested in the fabricated concept of 'the border', included Monaghan, Cavan and Donegal as part of their Northern Command during the Troubles. Consequently, while British forces conceptualized their response to cross border attacks, their thinking was focused on an area several miles to the front of where the enemy actually withdrew to.

 

[LEGZ30]

Most borders aren’t a complex because they have less crossings

There are 137 land border crossings between the EU and non-EU, there are 275 on the ROI/NI border

Reality Check: Ireland's border and Brexit - BBC News

Are there more border crossings in Ireland than the eastern border of the EU?

www.bbc.com

That number only works if you count only the major road/rail crossings between EU and non-EU and every single farmers track between NI and the ROI. You are comparing apples and oranges.

 

[MuddyOldEngineer]

Plenty but I am not so stupid as to publish them on here for your gratification

To reiterate: The majority of current national security resource and attention is focused on dissident republicans as these groups pose the greatest threat.

That is they are a greater threat to the security of the UK than Islamic Terrorists. That is why the main effort of the security services is keeping tabs on the Republican threat.

6 years on from Brexit and here we are, still not even close to the levels of violence seen in the troubles. Try harder.

 

[twentyfirstoffoot]

6 years on from Brexit and here we are, still not even close to the levels of violence seen in the troubles. Try harder.

Are you really that dense? We are speculating on a scenario that is just not going to happen, a hard border. The reason everyone is so fat and happy at the moment is the border has all but gone away, I know because I have crossed it about 40 times in the last 12 months and apart from the better roads in the South and the switch from km to miles you would not even realise you had moved from one jurisdiction to another.

Slightly dated now but still top level thinking on the potential risks of a hard border,

https://senatormarkdaly.files.wordpress.com/2019/02/unesco-chairs-report-brexit-return-to-violence.pdf

 

[MuddyOldEngineer]

Are you really that dense? We are speculating on a scenario that is just not going to happen, a hard border. The reason everyone is so fat and happy at the moment is the border has all but gone away, I know because I have crossed it about 40 times in the last 12 months and apart from the better roads in the South and the switch from km to miles you would not even realise you had moved from one jurisdiction to another.

Slightly dated now but still top level thinking on the potential risks of a hard border,

https://senatormarkdaly.files.wordpress.com/2019/02/unesco-chairs-report-brexit-return-to-violence.pdf

The difference in road conditions and km were in place long before Brexit.
The document listed is 2017, it deals with ifs and buts.
You decided to conflate a hard border with a return to the troubles.

Take your head for a wobble

 

[twentyfirstoffoot]

The difference in road conditions and km were in place long before Brexit.

Exactly can't you understand simple English. The border is there in name only and most people are pretty bloody happy it does not really exist.

The document listed is 2017, it deals with ifs and buts.

|That is why I pointed out the age of it. The ifs and buts are exactly what we are discussing. Nobody knows for sure what the return of a hard border would bring but it wont be as good as the situation today.

You decided to conflate a hard border with a return to the troubles.

No. I suggested it could be a catalyst for some sort of return to violence exploited by Dissident Republicans.. 1968 was pretty good and the IRA just about non existent when it was needed in 1969, by December 1969 there was the Provisionals and things escalated from there. All it takes is a spark.

 

[LEGZ30]

Exactly can't you understand simple English. The border is there in name only and most people are pretty bloody happy it does not really exist.

Try calling the Gardai and telling them you have just crashed your car in Belleek, or nipping across the border to vote in their election, or book a hospital appointment etc etc. Just because there are people who like to pretend the border doesn't exist, doesn't mean that it actually doesn't.

|That is why I pointed out the age of it. The ifs and buts are exactly what we are discussing. Nobody knows for sure what the return of a hard border would bring but it wont be as good as the situation today.


No. I suggested it could be a catalyst for some sort of return to violence exploited by Dissident Republicans.. 1968 was pretty good and the IRA just about non existent when it was needed in 1969, by December 1969 there was the Provisionals and things escalated from there. All it takes is a spark.

If DRs attacked customs personnel or infrastructure why would the effect be different to all the other attacks they have conducted since 1994?

 

[twentyfirstoffoot]

Try calling the Gardai and telling them you have just crashed your car in Belleek, or nipping across the border to vote in their election, or book a hospital appointment etc etc. Just because there are people who like to pretend the border doesn't exist, doesn't mean that it actually doesn't.

That is the usual dumb as fcuck response I have come to expect from you. I have not suggested the border does not exist just it doesn't impact on ordinary sensible people, but you are unfamiliar with that concept.

 

[twentyfirstoffoot]

If DRs attacked customs personnel or infrastructure why would the effect be different to all the other attacks they have conducted since 1994?

Read my explanation of catalyst and try to understand why so many soldiers were killed by PIRA when they went there to protect the Catholics. In 1969 the majority of Catholics had little or no opinion of the IRA or the British Army, Events changed things little by little.

 

[LEGZ30]

That is the usual dumb as fcuck response I have come to expect from you. I have not suggested the border does not exist just it doesn't impact on ordinary sensible people, but you are unfamiliar with that concept.

The border is there in name only and most people are pretty bloody happy it does not really exist.

 

[headgear]

What is your alternative suggestion?

As I see it the EU has a reasonable requirement for a trade and tax boundary between the UK and themselves.

A land border on the island of Ireland appears impossible due to local attitudes so the only alternative is the current situation.

i totally disagree, the border should be between NI and Eire but we dont man it - ireland wouldn't either for the exactly the same reason - with that arrangement in place a trade solution would be found pdq - because we havent dont that is allowing this to be an open sore

 

[exbleep]

A group of "influential" congressmen from the US are coming for talks in London, Dublin, Brussels and Belfast amid growing concerns about the growing tensions regarding the NI protocol.

It will be headed by the leader of the ways and means commission, Richie Neal, which has great influence over trade deals. The US Secretary of State has also said the US intends to appoint its own envoy to NI.

The US has also said that, as a guarantor of the GFA, they believe the NI protocol is vital to maintaining peace and stability.

They are expected to arrive before Boris's speech expected on Monday laying out the future of the protocol.

 

[British_And_Proud]

A group of "influential" congressmen from the US are coming for talks in London, Dublin, Brussels and Belfast amid growing concerns about the growing tensions regarding the NI protocol.

It will be headed by the leader of the ways and means commission, Richie Neal, which has great influence over trade deals. The US Secretary of State has also said the US intends to appoint its own envoy to NI.

The US has also said that, as a guarantor of the GFA, they believe the NI protocol is vital to maintaining peace and stability.

They are expected to arrive before Boris's speech expected on Monday laying out the future of the protocol.

The US believe the NI Protocol is vital to maintaining peace..

But the UVF no longer recognises the Belfast Agreement due to the NI Protocol. The UVF of course being one of the negotiators under the guise of the Progressive Unionist Party and the PUP signed the Belfast Agreement.

The Yanks can go ****.