Non-medical LE MSOs

#1
This is taken from me reading/witnessing the bitching being done on another thread.

We in the RAMC are seeing more and more non-RAMC LE MSOs entering. Now I have seen some damn good ones and I have seen, to be frank here, some dross that should never have got past the rank of Cpl, let alone got a Queens commission!

So is this the "right thing" for the RAMC to do? Invite non-medical types into the RAMC who have 20 odd years working in Infantry/other Corps/Arms and no idea of the working of the RAMC? Will it bring their "transferable skills" to our Corps or is this wishful thinking? Or will we it be seen as the easy way to gain a commission and "pump up" your pension?

I have some forthright views on this but will let others start the bitching first :twisted:
 
#2
This in my opinion depends on the quality of individual selected for commision, I have also had very good and very poor TFI LE MSO's, but alternatively some of the worst MSO's I have had have been ex-rank RAMC LE MSO's.

I feel the problem lies in the selection process by the AMS commisioning board, basically anyone from teeth arms who applies seems to be accepted, as the powers that be seem feel that anyone with "real soldiering" behind them are better what they have already got, ....mmm? question, if they are that good why does their own Corps/Regt not commision them?!!!

Then maybe it's because they shake hands correctly I don't know, it may no longer affect me directly but the AMS seem to go from one extreme to the other without success, maybe commisioning those worthy from the Corps and selecting the best candidates who apply from elsewhere might be the way forward, but that would be the common sense approach so probably never happen!!.
 
#3
It seems to me that the AMS is doing its usual routine of looking after the big Army but not itself. Lets get lots of non RAMC LE commissions and watch our own cap-badged wannabe commissions go to the wall. Maybe its a good Idea not to promote our own, as most are dross any way, I say most because I still firmly believe that there are some good managers in the AMS but they are too busy being ignored and over stepped, and I agree with Stan that if the other cap badged guys are so good why don't their parent corps or Regiments retain them in commissioned rank??

Personal feeling is that the AMS is on a slow ( but speeding up) self destruct mission. I am glad to be out but still watch with interest as my remaining still serving friends get shafted left right and centre until they too decide to leave.

The AMS will soon be headlining in its own obituary as it heads to privatisation.
 
#5
As ever, there are too many variables to generalise. However, I can say this much; I know two TFI LE MSO's that I knew prior to their being commissioned. One of them was always disparaging of the AMS and was a tw@t as a SNCO, funny how he commissioned RAMC and not his own capbadge. The other was a good bloke as a WO and continues to be a good bloke now and has applied the same attitude and professionalism to his Commissioned service as he did in the Ranks.

I also knew a WO APTC that was working towards LE Commission in RAMC and am aware of how hard he was working on boning up on all aspects of the AMS to prepare himself, don't know if he got in though.

At the end of the day, no one group has the monopoly on being oxygen thieves destined to ruin the AMS - we have a fair share of throbbers that come in via all routes. I also like to believe that there remains a predominance of good eggs and talented guys that have chosen the RAMC because it is what they want to do, as opposed to being the Corps that likes to say yes.
 
#6
When you look at the jobs the LE's generally get, then why cant outsiders come in. QM(T), Welfare, Sqn 2IC, RCMO etc they can all be done by anyone with years of Army experience. Added to that the courses the AMS run prior to commission, in conjunction with the pre work all applicants will have undertaken. i think sometimes the AMS WO's over estimate there ability and experience. Yes to a certain degree the CMT career is "generally" medical but extremely varied and not specific. ie there is no career structure set that one can build on. Lets face it if you do 22 years as a CMT and dont get to WO your ability is questionable. There is a higher rate of WO's to soldiers in the CMT trade compared to the Infantry for example therefore reducing the infanteers chances of WO1 and commission in the infantry and a decent quality pool of WO's for the RAMC to tap into. If the quality in the AMS was there the AMS would use it. Face fact. sadly we've been let down before. If you'r what they are looking for you will get it if not start your ressettlement. Take the challenge on, dont loose sight of who has the greater challenge throughout the process, the TFI who is starting with no knowlege as has been discussed previously.
 
#7
smithy749 said:
Lets face it if you do 22 years as a CMT and dont get to WO your ability is questionable.
A fair point Smithy, but some CMT's didn't want promotion to Warrant rank. Certain CMT's, myself included, turned down promotion because it did not fall in line with our personal lives, these lives that we ran concurrently with our service life. Yes it would have been great to have retired on Warrant pension but Job satisfaction and marital harmony has to play a large role in anyones career. At SSGT rank I was more than happy with my lot, I ran a good section and was well supported ( by the Infantry but not by the AMS).

I presume your comment was posted more to the fact that BECAUSE YOU HAVE REACHED WARRANT RANK WE MUST ALL BE WASTERS.
Once again Smithy, you make comments which upset.
 
#8
I understand that by next year we will have about 30 RAMC WO1s. The likelhood is that there will be a requirement for about 6-8 LEs year on year in the future. If we can not select this number of LEs from a pool as large as this (not to mention the WO2s available) then we must be doing something very wrong. It is time for an AMS only policy for LE commissions and perhaps a recruiting campaign to attract some tech trades to apply for MSO appts.

Picking up on Smithy's point that anyone could do a QM Tech job, I believe that could not be more wrong. To do this job well the holder of the appointment needs more than a superficial knowledge of the increasingly technical medical equipment in Fd Units. That this opinion seems to be so widespread in the Corps could be an indication as to why so much of our equipment is poorly managed?

Finally, it is my understanding that all the UK based UWO appointments will be going to WO1s on continuance in the coming year. I have no doubt that they will do a very good job, however, I believe that if they are suitable to perform the function of an LE offr, they should have been commissioned; any views?
 
#9
Exactly who is Smithy749???

Mis-informed, Mis-placed, and possibly a mis-fit???

I agree with Medman and Scholesy and suggest that if Smithy has nothing of value to add then he/she should go fish in the Infantry Forum - if it so suits??
 
#10
Smithy, A lot of us ex S/Nco's did not get the promotion we perhaps might have had we been in mainstream RAMC units, I had 3 reporting officers in 6 years, who were ex Infantry LE's, where all 6 of my CR'S were A's and I was happy with that, but RAMC boards were looking for O,s, and I'm afraid I was never an outstanding soldier, and if the reporting Officer look at the exact wording of CR writing, there shouldn't be that many O,s given. My ability as a soldier was never in doubt, and I could, but won't name names of senior WO's in the RAMC who would not even make good section Cpl's in any Infantry battalion.A lot in my day got there by arrse lickin and nothing more,believe me.

I know several WO1 who should have been commisioned, but the RAMC in thier infinite wisdom let them go. And it was sad to see.

I could go on and on, but hey, I done my time and enjoyed it, and was always able to sleep at nights.
 
#11
chokinthechicken said:
Smithy, A lot of us ex S/Nco's did not get the promotion we perhaps might have had we been in mainstream RAMC units, I had 3 reporting officers in 6 years, who were ex Infantry LE's, where all 6 of my CR'S were A's and I was happy with that, but RAMC boards were looking for O,s, and I'm afraid I was never an outstanding soldier, and if the reporting Officer look at the exact wording of CR writing, there shouldn't be that many O,s given. My ability as a soldier was never in doubt, and I could, but won't name names of senior WO's in the RAMC who would not even make good section Cpl's in any Infantry battalion.A lot in my day got there by arrse lickin and nothing more,believe me.

I know several WO1 who should have been commisioned, but the RAMC in thier infinite wisdom let them go. And it was sad to see.

I could go on and on, but hey, I done my time and enjoyed it, and was always able to sleep at nights.

Cracking post fella, that sums up everything perfectly nice one.
 
#12
How does that sum it up?? all people go on about is bloody gradings. speak to someone who has sat on a board and you will realise the grade is not important but the write up is. Its always those who have not made the top who complain and cry redress. Like I have said on numerous occasions before you get 21 CRs. Wrote by lets say 15 Part one authors and 12 part 2 authors. then you get part 3 for those in E type posts. You cannot tell me all these authors canot see through a brown noser. Any decent manager would base the report on performance and results. I accept sometimes some slip the net but very few especially with open reporting.

Mis-informed, Mis-placed, and possibly a mis-fit??? Thats up to individuals perception. I achieved WO1 left happy, never applied for commission as it was time to leave and I knew from day 1 my contract was for 22 years. Theres no point crying cause the AMS says it wants all and sundrie to apply for commissions. If your better than them and want it then you will get it. As has been eluded to above there is a lot of low quality due to the large number of WO slots. additionally a feeling amongst the WO's it is a given right.

I presume your comment was posted more to the fact that BECAUSE YOU HAVE REACHED WARRANT RANK WE MUST ALL BE WASTERS.
Once again Smithy, you make comments which upset.

Im not saying waster but what I am saying is everybody has a level. if you percieve that as waster thats your perogative. There are very few guys who leave at 22 years Cpl/Sgt rank who I believe have been unfairly treated. I also suspect although i may be wrong that they when they leave do not set civvie street alight! It maybe a poor assumption but being out in civvie street and seeing the calibre of people earning good money does not lend it self to thinking 22 year Cpls are dynamic enough to out do these people.

Picking up on Smithy's point that anyone could do a QM Tech job, I believe that could not be more wrong. To do this job well the holder of the appointment needs more than a superficial knowledge of the increasingly technical medical equipment in Fd Units. That this opinion seems to be so widespread in the Corps could be an indication as to why so much of our equipment is poorly managed?

once again I can accept you point but it is the end users/med storemans responsibility to look after the kit. The QM (T) is the manager of the logistic department, hes not going to fill in a demand forms or look after the kit. his job is to manage the department and associated administartion. If a QA/ODP comes in and starts talking about some complex bit of kit that only they know it doesnt matter whos sat there. he is there to ensure processes are adhered to.Thats why when the LSI team come in its him who answers to the CO. They dont go looking for complex bits of kit, just processes as laid down by the Army in accordance with civilian auditing practices.

I agree with Medman and Scholesy and suggest that if Smithy has nothing of value to add then he/she should go fish in the Infantry Forum - if it so suits??

Why would I do that, i did 22 years AMS and have put forward an alternative suggestion that clearly you and others dont agree with. That doesnt mean go elsewhere that means your blinkered, resitant to debate and this may suggest lack intelligence. Once again thats my perception!!

Anyway Ive got work to be getting on with no NAAFI breaks in civvie street!

PS I cant be bothered with the spell check work through it
 
#13
Smithy 749.Unfairly treated, surely you mean Shit upon, I must know you and congratulations on reaching the rank you did. Surprised that LE commisioning was not for you.

Im not blinkered,debate has it's place, and not being able to put words on paper, does not even make me/us unintelligent. Any chance of you going to the Liverpool weekend.? If so, I'm sure we will meet.

I enjoyed my time in the RAMC, but there were a lot of arrs-holes in positions above thier level of intelect/experience, and considered nobody but themselves.

PS. I get NAAFI breaks, and only work 6 months a year.Not bad for a thicko,eh. Pay is very good as well.
 
#14
smithy749 said:
How does that sum it up?? all people go on about is bloody gradings. speak to someone who has sat on a board and you will realise the grade is not important but the write up is. Its always those who have not made the top who complain and cry redress. Like I have said on numerous occasions before you get 21 CRs. Wrote by lets say 15 Part one authors and 12 part 2 authors. then you get part 3 for those in E type posts. You cannot tell me all these authors canot see through a brown noser. Any decent manager would base the report on performance and results. I accept sometimes some slip the net but very few especially with open reporting.

Mis-informed, Mis-placed, and possibly a mis-fit??? Thats up to individuals perception. I achieved WO1 left happy, never applied for commission as it was time to leave and I knew from day 1 my contract was for 22 years. Theres no point crying cause the AMS says it wants all and sundrie to apply for commissions. If your better than them and want it then you will get it. As has been eluded to above there is a lot of low quality due to the large number of WO slots. additionally a feeling amongst the WO's it is a given right.

I presume your comment was posted more to the fact that BECAUSE YOU HAVE REACHED WARRANT RANK WE MUST ALL BE WASTERS.
Once again Smithy, you make comments which upset.

Im not saying waster but what I am saying is everybody has a level. if you percieve that as waster thats your perogative. There are very few guys who leave at 22 years Cpl/Sgt rank who I believe have been unfairly treated. I also suspect although i may be wrong that they when they leave do not set civvie street alight! It maybe a poor assumption but being out in civvie street and seeing the calibre of people earning good money does not lend it self to thinking 22 year Cpls are dynamic enough to out do these people.

Picking up on Smithy's point that anyone could do a QM Tech job, I believe that could not be more wrong. To do this job well the holder of the appointment needs more than a superficial knowledge of the increasingly technical medical equipment in Fd Units. That this opinion seems to be so widespread in the Corps could be an indication as to why so much of our equipment is poorly managed?

once again I can accept you point but it is the end users/med storemans responsibility to look after the kit. The QM (T) is the manager of the logistic department, hes not going to fill in a demand forms or look after the kit. his job is to manage the department and associated administartion. If a QA/ODP comes in and starts talking about some complex bit of kit that only they know it doesnt matter whos sat there. he is there to ensure processes are adhered to.Thats why when the LSI team come in its him who answers to the CO. They dont go looking for complex bits of kit, just processes as laid down by the Army in accordance with civilian auditing practices.

I agree with Medman and Scholesy and suggest that if Smithy has nothing of value to add then he/she should go fish in the Infantry Forum - if it so suits??

Why would I do that, i did 22 years AMS and have put forward an alternative suggestion that clearly you and others dont agree with. That doesnt mean go elsewhere that means your blinkered, resitant to debate and this may suggest lack intelligence. Once again thats my perception!!

Anyway Ive got work to be getting on with no NAAFI breaks in civvie street!

PS I cant be bothered with the spell check work through it
Smithy. A great come back, well worded and well laid out. You seem to have covered all points positive and negative but still haven't quite hit the nail on the head. Some people are just happy to be "slightly" led whilst at the same time being a good leader. Like you. I too am a civvie now, I totally agree about the " no time for a Naafi break" comment, I work as a civvy for the police force and we don't have time to fit in a meal break let alone a naafi break. That isn't said as a way of complaint, but the fact is that we are all professional enough to realise that we will recoup our time at a later date, either by early finish or longer meal break when time permits.

The comment you made about lower rank leavers not " setting civilian employment alight".. There are a lot of employers out here in civvie street that DO REALISE the comittment given by service leavers. They may not be showering the world with sparks but without their input the big machine may cease to operate without that one small cog working.

With no sarcasm intended, I hope that you are enjoying your civilian employment as much as I am enjoying mine, and I still get to serve the country and local community, without the big fanfare.

Best wishes mate and always remember IN ARDUIS FIDELIS the motto to live by.
 
#15
Medman that was a very complimentary and unexpected reply. Like you eluded to everybody has a place or level. Sadly a lot of contributors on this AMS site believe they all should have made the top and if they didnt its all about being shit on. I suspect 1 or 2 did but in the main you find your level as i have pointed out above. This I also believe goes through to the WO's who also believe they have a right to be Offrs, sadly thats not the case and unfortunately for some the threat of real competition from outside firstly reduces there chances and secondly shows some up for what they are. I set my stall out 5 years from my 22 and left witha fairly easy transition. Civvie street is all I hoped for and more. Challenging yes multi skilled but average like the Army no just skilled in one area. Very money orientated and ruthless. under achievers are out the door. non of this EO crap if you contravene company policy goodbye, no ITD's, read this and comply. and pay is good more tham i left on plus a pension lifes easy.

chokin the chicken. I would love to know what shit on constitutes. I was charged, did time but dont feel agrieved it was my fault. Just get on with it. 6 months work suggests to me you work on the rigs or similar, Thats Not exactly the equivelent of 6 months at 40 hours. I suspect if you add the 6 x 30x24 you work more hours than most. if ive got it something like right. thats army mentality. Its about the time you cant do what you want not about,not actually doing work( if you understand that) Quality of life I think they call it.
as for Liverpool Im thinking of going. Sounds like it should be good. are you booked in for the weekend?
 
#16
smithy749 said:
Civvie street is all I hoped for and more. Challenging yes multi skilled but average like the Army no just skilled in one area. Very money orientated and ruthless. under achievers are out the door. non of this EO crap if you contravene company policy goodbye, no ITD's, read this and comply. and pay is good more tham i left on plus a pension lifes easy.
I have to say as rare as it may be for me to agree with you smithy you are completely right on the above quote about what civvie street expects, I love being a civvie now and look back at my career in the corps with pride, I left after 13 years as I knew my character would not allow me to progress as well as it did in times previous. Thats not bitching but fact, but that doesn't mean I agree with all that I saw while serving but then thats why we all debate what we believe to be the right way. Lets be honest we can debate all we want on here but the only way is the way the system decides, whether we like it or not and that is as true outside as it is in.

That also applies for this post, the system will decide what line the commisioning will go, hopefully those deciding policy will have a bit of common sense and look at all applicants with their future employment in mind and make the right decisions, although they could learn from civvie street in that if you don't perform and achieve the standards required you get the bullet.
 
#18
Smithy, just one thing to add if I may - there are a lot of us that have equal intelligence in many areas and perhaps more or less in others. This does not mean we are stupid, clever or any other fancy term which we could bandy around. Please accept that we (all of us) continue to be successful in our own right and whether that be in or out of the service, have the good grace to let us continue being good at whatever it is we do.

If you are the person I supect then you should use your time wisely on the outside and reflect on missed opportunities of bygone years??
 
#19
Draaaaaging the thread back on topic...

The question arises: why do so many WOs from other Corps and Regts apply for commissions in the AMS? There are a number of possible answers:

1. We have lower standards.
2. We offer wider employment options.
3. We have trouble recruiting DE officers to be MSOs.

I don't pretend to know which it is, if any of these. I'm happy to say that every single LE officer I've worked with was, at the very least, competent - previously AMS or not. However, I know of ex-Guards LE MSOs who shudder at the very thought of having been commissioned into the QM stream of their own Div, and ex-AGC types who grimace at the idea of being an RAO for the rest of their careers. I do think the AMS should be proud of its reputation for good-natured cooperation between the LE and DE cadres.

IF
 

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