Non Graduate Entry

#1
Can anyone please give a realistic opinion/ experienced advice on going to RMAS as a young non-grad (18-20). Advantages/ disadvantages. Does the pass rate drop, and what do they tend to struggle on more?

And on a slightly different note, what si the phys actually like? Obviously i expect to be high at the edn, but is it faiurly progressive? I have spoken to one Officer who said as logn as you can get round a PFT you're onto a winner, others saying it's hard at whatever level you are!

Cheers
 
#2
From my experience, there was really no obvious difference between non/grads - except the level of disposable income. The only thing that being a graduate gave was that some might have more experience of writing essays, but there really wasn't much in it.

The Physs was hard, in my opinion, but so it was for everyone - the naturally fitter guys had more expected of them - you all had to work towards your own personal max, or as part of a team.

T
 
#3
The fitter guys do get worked slightly harder, however, the basic is that the fitter that you are the less you will struggle or be under pressure. Those that are always struggling with the basic fitness will attract attention and extra pressure.

From my experience (Cadet and DS) there was no particular difference between grad and non-grad in perfromance terms. Good luck.

whf
 
#4
The only thought you might wish to have is what do you do later if you decide to leave the Army. Civ jobs are more and more expecting a degree on application forms, as more and more people get them, indeed some paper sifts may remove an non grad application. If you plan on getting a degree in service then that may mitigate it but these are fewer and fewer these days.

Also bear in mind that without a degree your time from commisioning to Capt will be the full term period, where as the graduate will recieve time in lieu based on their time in university. After Capt that evens out, but again its something to bear in mind when choosing. Non grad 5 years from commissioning to Capt, Grad 2 years from commisioning.

However being a non grad gives you more time to do other posts that grads dont have the time in their profile to do. This can be good or bad depending entirely on the person.

The other posters are correct though, at RMAS and beyond there is no difference in performance, specifically down to a degree or not.

I went to RMAS at 18 as a non grad.
 
#5
This has been covered before on similar threads - no drama for posting, the 13 page one below doesn't seem to come up for the most obvious search terms:

http://www.arrse.co.uk/Forums/viewtopic/t=33661.html

Also a shorter one here:

http://www.arrse.co.uk/Forums/viewtopic/t=113273/highlight=non+graduate.html

If you use the first one as your base, it'll bring it to the top of the Regular Officer Recruiting board and make it easier for others in your position to read the large number of post - generally of a very high quality. The beginning of the thread is a little old but essentially little has changed.

In terms of phys do as much as possible - short of carrying weight, unless you're in the TA and know what you're doing - before you arrive. You'd be suprised by how many ( in my experience at least ) turn up with the bare minimum, or less. They're struggling from Day One. There's no great skill or secret to getting fit despite the fretting by aspiring OCdts on various threads. Its the only thing you can square away prior to arriving. With that sorted you can concentrate on the many other things you'll find yourself having to learn.

Good luck

Charlie
 
#6
I echo what Charlie said - the fitter you are on arrival, the better. Weighted PT and endurance stuff in boots is an incremental program, so as long as you turn up as fit as you can be (or can be bothered to be), that is one less thing to worry about. We had guys in my platoon that struggled on PT throughout. This started as being bad for them, but soon becomes bad for all as you have to fall back to help out (unless you didn't like them and wanted them to be back termed I suppose).

As for non-grad entry, part of it is the eternal argument over what a grad really knows about the world over an 18 year old. More than that, you may have more experience of living on your own means (or at least budgeting), studying to a timetable etc - just more general "Life" experience. In return, you get paid more than the 18 year old, promote faster and get to mock the non-grad forever (if they're smaller than you). Flip side is that the non-grad does the "better" Troop Commander type command jobs for longer, whereas the Grad can rush through that, although LOTS engagement has balanced that out somewhat.

In my experience (as a grad), i would say 95% of the non-grad entrants I have known perform the same, but hate the disparity in pay forever and always have a minute chip about the fact they do the same job for less...that said, I have known many non-grads get promoted earlier as they fill roles they wouldn't be expected to - so promotion to Capt may not take the full 5 years (3 for a grad).
 
#7
The question might better be regarding the pros and cons of entry in late teens rather than mid 20s. This, IMO, is the real difference between grads, non grads. Horses for courses really, as it takes all sorts to make the CC work.
 
#8
I'm a 22 year old non-grad myself with 4 A-Levels, and I am considering joining the Army as an Officer. I'm looking for some advice on the pay-scales, and although it has been said on here or other threads that grads get about £9000 per year more than non-grads, it still leaves me a little confused.

According to the new AFPRB report for this year, Level 1 OF-1 pay is £15,573. Is this what a non-grad should be expecting to be paid, were a grad will enter at Level 3-4 (£18-22k)?

If that is so, there seems to be some disparity between officer and soldier. Especially since a Private fresh out of basic training earns £17,015 at the very least.
 
#9
Non-grad at RMAS gets 18k whilst a grad gets 24k. The grad then promotes to captain after two years, whilst it will take the non-grad five years so you can judge the salary from that info and from the online officers pay scales.
 
#11
Good Lord, are Officers paid now? How much does a Comission in a good Regiment cost these days?
 
#12
CaptainPlume said:
Good Lord, are Officers paid now? How much does a Comission in a good Regiment cost these days?
Only the ones who can actually spell commission get paid. Its a harsh but ultimately fair system.
 
#13
I was planning on going in as a non grad until earlier this year and I think I definitely made the right call there. I'm glad I'm going to be at uni in September not Sandhurst. Don't get me wrong I can't wait to go but I think after three years at uni I will be a lot better prepared than I am at the minute. Also don't really like the look of non grad pay...
 
#14
frogit5 said:
I was planning on going in as a non grad until earlier this year and I think I definitely made the right call there. I'm glad I'm going to be at uni in September not Sandhurst. Don't get me wrong I can't wait to go but I think after three years at uni I will be a lot better prepared than I am at the minute. Also don't really like the look of non grad pay...
Yeah you'll feel much better in three years time with 20 grands worth of debt hanging round your neck... :p
 
#15
Good thing about having a Scholarship I know I'm gonna have a means of paying off my (hopefully substantial) debt ;)
 
#16
Christ almighty if this is the calibre of OCdts i'm to find myself up against in a couple of months time i'm done for! At your age i didn't have the foresight to envisage a month down the line, let alone three years! I've only just begin to err on the side of prudence, foresight and restraint and i'm nearing mid twenties! Still don't have a degree though!
 
#17
i_love_ftorres said:
frogit5 said:
I was planning on going in as a non grad until earlier this year and I think I definitely made the right call there. I'm glad I'm going to be at uni in September not Sandhurst. Don't get me wrong I can't wait to go but I think after three years at uni I will be a lot better prepared than I am at the minute. Also don't really like the look of non grad pay...
Yeah you'll feel much better in three years time with 20 grands worth of debt hanging round your neck... :p


It's a pretty unfortunate situation for those such as yourself Ftorres as you aren't a grad but also aren't going in aged 18 or 19 so you aren't able to take advantage of those three years where the grad would be at university to even out the pay gap.


I did pass AOSB at 19 but I wouldn't have wanted to go to RMAS at the time, I'm pretty certain I didn't have the maturity or confidence to cope with the course. I'll be going in at 22, and I hope a lot more prepared for the challenge it presents, but I suppose only time will tell.
 
#18
I (like to) think that I would be able to hack the course if I was starting this September but to be honest I would rather spend my next three years drinking/making friends/shagging my way around London, maybe even do a bit of studying if I have time, then go straight in. I also feel that if I leave it three years I'll be better prepared mentally and physically, and will have gotten most of the immaturity out of me before rocking up to the academy.
 
#19
Switchback said:
i_love_ftorres said:
frogit5 said:
I was planning on going in as a non grad until earlier this year and I think I definitely made the right call there. I'm glad I'm going to be at uni in September not Sandhurst. Don't get me wrong I can't wait to go but I think after three years at uni I will be a lot better prepared than I am at the minute. Also don't really like the look of non grad pay...
Yeah you'll feel much better in three years time with 20 grands worth of debt hanging round your neck... :p
It's a pretty unfortunate situation for those such as yourself Ftorres as you aren't a grad but also aren't going in aged 18 or 19 so you aren't able to take advantage of those three years where the grad would be at university to even out the pay gap.
I'll probably get accused of being chippy or maybe i just am, but your talking BS. In my book pretty unfortunate constitutes suffering from long term incurable illness, or maybe a life changing injury. Having to suffer crap wages for a year and few more after that, for the privelege of attending RMAS and serving as an Officer in the British Army is not unfortunate, it is the best thing that will/has happened to me.

Arguably i'm not doing much dispel that notion the non grad Ocdts/Officers have huge chips on their shoulders re the pay/promotion difference, but what really gets my goat is this idea that as a non grad i have somehow missed out. Yes maybe on that extra 9 grand you get and those extra two pips you'll have three years previous to me. But whilst you've been studying and enjoying all the best things uni life has to offer, i have learnt a trade, lived a 'normal' life, and come to the conclusion that i don't want to be like my fellow work colleagues who spend the day talking crap about some new tv or car, or their mortgage. I want to have some stories to tell and experience life in green.

In regards to non grad pay/ grad pay it all evens out in the end. I have no substantial student debt, i have been working for the past 6 or so years and earning a good wage for the last three. Yes, i can imagine i won't be thinking that when i get my payslip come the next couple of months but all i have to remember is why i'm doing it. And while money makes the world go round it certaintly isn't the reason i've joined the Army!


So don't feel too sorry for me, and keep a look out for a post from me in a couple years time when hopefully i'll be commissioned and moaning like a little bitch as gents like Frogit become Captain before me! (if i make it that far) :p
 
#20
I'll probably get accused of being chippy or maybe i just am, but your talking BS.
For the record I'd say incurable illness would rank higher than "pretty unfortunate" on my scale of misfortune.

I think you entirely misunderstood what I was getting at, but it is not worth arguing over.
 

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