Non authorised medal type question.

C

CivPlod

Guest
#1
Firstly apologies if this is on the wrong part of the forum(and please move it of it is)
and secondly apologies for not asking this on Rum ration(but its a bit dead and full of old salts who cant give a straight answer)

My question is as follows:

if someone earns a gallantry medal write up i.e the VC/CGC/DSC on a Naval jaunt, say Op Active Endevour/Op Atalanta (which are permission to accept but non authorised to wear) because they got shot at etc and done something to deserve said write up would they get the military gallantry award or the civilian?

I don't have any hidden agenda for this question, was just wondering how it would work.

CP
 
C

CivPlod

Guest
#3
Of course its on encrypt that's the point!!!! ;o)

If you are written up for a gallantry award for an Op which has a gong, but not authorised to wear. Is the gallantry award Military or civilian?
 
#4
if someone earns a gallantry medal write up i.e the VC/CGC/DSC on a Naval jaunt, say Op Active Endevour/Op Atalanta (which are permission to accept but non authorised to wear) because they got shot at etc and done something to deserve said write up would they get the military gallantry award or the civilian?
1. You don't get "permission to accept but non authorised to wear" for UK awards. You get them or you don't. Being written up for one is irrelevant.

2. There is no civ / mil distinction in the three gallantry awards you mention. And, unlike the RAF, the RN are part of the military ...

Civ / mil comes with xBE etc - where it doesn't matter who you were, it matters what you got it for. So, snide comments aside - an RAF WO, an EFI mgr, or a civ contractor could get a Mil MBE for services in theatre, an Army Capt could get a civ MBE for charity work (HfH, ABF even) UK-side.
 
#5
How can you be given a VC but not authorised to wear it?

Say again all after firstly.
 
C

CivPlod

Guest
#6
Idrach

so in theory, you could be cited for the D.S.C for Op Active Endeavour and wear the DSC but not the NATO medal that goes with it?
 
#7
He means, if he gets a gallantry gong during an OP which has a medal not authorised for wear ( EG the new NATO AFRICA medal for the anti Piracy missions) or a Non Article 5 if he already has a Balkans Medal, would he get a civil or Military Gallantry Gong.

The answer depends on the circumstances of the gallantry.
 
#8
Civ, do you mean if you're a civvy, or TA? I must be bone (not entirely out of the question) but I don't understand the premise of your query.
Good point about my sarky remark though! I must try harder....
 
C

CivPlod

Guest
#9
It wouldn't matter if I was RNR or RN for the two Ops I have listed.
Read Mittmayos post, he has put it more.......... succinctly.

I'll give you a C for the snide remark.
 
#10
so in theory, you could be cited for the D.S.C for Op Active Endeavour and wear the DSC but not the NATO medal that goes with it?
I think, and experts like MM can correct me that, just like getting wounded, getting awarded (not written up for) a gallantry award in theatre qualifies you for a relevant UK campaign medal. I'm afraid I'm not enough of a medal spotter to know how that works for NATO / EU medals but I'd expect they'd still require you to do the qualifying days. That's a guess, however.

He means, if he gets a gallantry gong during an OP which has a medal not authorised for wear ( EG the new NATO AFRICA medal for the anti Piracy missions) or a Non Article 5 if he already has a Balkans Medal, would he get a civil or Military Gallantry Gong.

The answer depends on the circumstances of the gallantry.
And, frankly, whether the gallantry medal has any distinction between mil and civ awards. Which few do (unlike OM, xB, xBE etc). Of course, there are the "in the face of the enemy" versus not distinctions (VC versus GC, etc) but I don't think these are relevant to CP's point?

I may be missing something ... Arguing with KBG-R does that to you after a while.
 
#11
I believe it is possible. If you look at some individuals, they have been awarded an honour on the recognised list out of a conflict area...including UK. Some guys I have seen in the past have been award QCB, this is displayed on a plain black ribbon at the end of his medal rack. Search and rescue guys have earnt medals for UK duties where no other medal is awarded.

The difference between the Mil & Civ varients depends on the citation, remember that most awards are either 'in the face of the enemy' or not.
 
#12
Okay - having read the stuff that went on while I was thinking. I think the answer is "Yes - you can be awarded a mil gallantry award for services in a non-UK campaign medal earning theatre but not do enough days to qualify for the NATO/EU/whatever campaign gong."

Compare with the certainty that you can be awarded a gallantry medal for services in an area which doesn't qualify you for any campaign gong, UK or otherwise.

Edited to add - and Blob-M's point re MiD, QCB, flapped arms like a birdy, etc ...
 
#13
I thought military and civil referred to the list that it appeared on. I thought that civilians didnt appear on the mil list.
 
#14
Okay - having read the stuff that went on while I was thinking. I think the answer is "Yes - you can be awarded a mil gallantry award for services in a non-UK campaign medal earning theatre but not do enough days to qualify for the NATO/EU/whatever campaign gong."

Compare with the certainty that you can be awarded a gallantry medal for services in an area which doesn't qualify you for any campaign gong, UK or otherwise.

Edited to add - and Blob-M's point re MiD, QCB, flapped arms like a birdy, etc ...
Absolutely spot on.

The Military/Civvy terminology is a lazy way of comparing VC/GC CGC/GM MC/QGM MID/QCB etc etc

Both Mil and Civ can be awarded either type dependant on the circs. IIRC there are four Civilian holders of the VC (now deceased)
 
C

CivPlod

Guest
#15
Ok Idrach,

Lets take this out of reality for a mo.


Lets say HMS Montrose deploys on Op Ocean Shield(and such qualifies after the requisite time for the NATO Africa medal, which they cant wear, and such gives credence, slightly to the NDM on the Naval side). Whilst there on the last day of their patrol a skiff blows a hole in the port side, AB Scrumbucket whilst under duress and and fire from said skiff "in the face of the enemy" rescues a CPO and a Subby.

does this entitle him to a DSC/MC or the QGM(again lets say it will be awarded if being written up), given as I have stated that he cant wear the NATO medal. I ask because if he get the "military" award, would he not look out of place with a gallantry award but not the theatre medal that went with it?

edit to say, have now read posts posted after I had started to write this one. Cheers all for the answer.
Note to self........stop thinking pish whilst wife's in hospital and watch more porn........
 
#16
CivPlod. The penny dropped with Mittmayos contribution. Interesting stuff. Slightly off topic, but are you aware of the Metplod m/cyclist awarded a gallantry medal in the 70's by the West Germans? He was an outrider and was escorting a German diplomat in central London as part of a DPG escort. A car coming the other way veered toward the car carrying the Deutsche Diplomat. He took avoiding action, suspecting it was a terrorist attack. It turned out to be heart attack with the driver dying at the wheel. He was awarded a gallantry medal, which apparently looked suspiciously like an Iron Cross, which he used to wear on his tunic on Remembrance Day parades (allegedly) Bet that raised a smile.
If memory serves, he has only recently retired.
 
#18
Ok Idrach,

Lets take this out of reality for a mo.


Lets say HMS Montrose deploys on Op Ocean Shield(and such qualifies after the requisite time for the NATO Africa medal, which they cant wear, and such gives credence, slightly to the NDM on the Naval side). Whilst there on the last day of their patrol a skiff blows a hole in the port side, AB Scrumbucket whilst under duress and and fire from said skiff "in the face of the enemy" rescues a CPO and a Subby.

does this entitle him to a DSC/MC or the QGM(again lets say it will be awarded if being written up), given as I have stated that he cant wear the NATO medal. I ask because if he get the "military" award, would he not look out of place with a gallantry award but not the theatre medal that went with it?

edit to say, have now read posts posted after I had started to write this one. Cheers all for the answer.
Note to self........stop thinking pish whilst wife's in hospital and watch more porn........
I would say................. If under direct fire at the time, then the DSC (It wouldn't be the MC as the DSC is the RN equivilent whilst at sea)

If not under direct fire at the time, then probably the QGM

The whole system is a minefield
 
#19
CivPlod, your 'mucker / mate', if awarded a gallantry award of any flavour, would be entitled to wear said gong, depending on the Officer writing the gallantry citation, but not the NATO one as its not authorised by HM Queen / MOD. In reality yes he / she could waltz round with one gallantry medal. If your 'mate' is serving as RN / RNR he /she will get the military version, also if they are a civvy working with RN ? OGD etc then the same applies, civvys would get the civvy version in for a civilian action, for arguments sake during the Lodon Bombings in 2005 they saved a life at great risk to their own life.


STILTS
 
#20
CivPlod, your 'mucker / mate', if awarded a gallantry award of any flavour, would be entitled to wear said gong, depending on the Officer writing the gallantry citation, but not the NATO one as its not authorised by HM Queen / MOD. In reality yes he / she could waltz round with one gallantry medal. If your 'mate' is serving as RN / RNR he /she will get the military version, also if they are a civvy working with RN ? OGD etc then the same applies, civvys would get the civvy version in for a civilian action, for arguments sake during the Lodon Bombings in 2005 they saved a life at great risk to their own life.


STILTS


NOPE - depends on the circumstances. Plenty of opportunities for Military to be awarded GC/GM/QGM.
 

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