No tour - no job

#1
Wanted to share my thoughts on this subject. We have people in the TA who have never been on tour - NEVER. Why do they stay in, what do they get out of the TA.
It amazes me that they spend years training for something that they will never put into practise.
We also have people who did one tour years ago, Telic 2 for example, and still live of the glory. get real and get current.
I'm pretty sure the USA National Guard is not run like this.
Any thoughts?
 
#2
Wanted to share my thoughts on this subject. We have people in the TA who have never been on tour - NEVER. Why do they stay in, what do they get out of the TA.
It amazes me that they spend years training for something that they will never put into practise.
We also have people who did one tour years ago, Telic 2 for example, and still live of the glory. get real and get current.
I was in the TA Signals. The entire regular army was Bowmanised. We had Clansman, apart from the occasional broken Bowman set through the door. Thus, I spent years training on something I'd never get to put to practice anyway. Nothing to do with tours, more to do with training on obsolete equipment, in scenarios that were never going to arise.

And that, is why I left. Nothing to do with shouting at children.
 
#3
If people want to go on tours, they may as well join the Regular Army. The TA is for people who want a civvy career but are also prepared to strengthen the Army if the need arises.

I don't have a problem with TA soldiers who have never been on a tour. They've signed up to a commitment that if they're needed, they'll go - it's just that they haven't been needed.

War is a nasty thing, not an adventure holiday - but the people who keep bragging about how many tours they've done and belittling those who've not done a tour evidently haven't got a commitment to a civvy job and equally aren't prepared to commit themselves to full-time service.

You may also consider that your ability to go on tour probably relied on work put in by people who hadn't been on tour, so you may wish to thank them rather than despise them.

PS

My one tour was TELIC 2. I was mobilised because I was needed. I presume that you weren't compulsorily mobilised in the proper sense, but stuck your hand up for an adventure holiday which you thought would be more exciting than your civvy job (presuming that you had one). To me that doesn't show commitment, but lack of.
 
#4
I stuck my hand up as I felt it was my duty. I was new to it all and to be quite honest a little scared. I had a great time though and learned alot. I have a decent job in civvy street, well some might think its not, and they support me whenever i have mobilized, this has been lead to difficulties in promotion etc though.
 
#5
If people want to go on tours, they may as well join the Regular Army. The TA is for people who want a civvy career but are also prepared to strengthen the Army if the need arises.

I don't have a problem with TA soldiers who have never been on a tour. They've signed up to a commitment that if they're needed, they'll go - it's just that they haven't been needed.

War is a nasty thing, not an adventure holiday - but the people who keep bragging about how many tours they've done and belittling those who've not done a tour evidently haven't got a commitment to a civvy job and equally aren't prepared to commit themselves to full-time service.

You may also consider that your ability to go on tour probably relied on work put in by people who hadn't been on tour, so you may wish to thank them rather than despise them.

PS

My one tour was TELIC 2. I was mobilised because I was needed. I presume that you weren't compulsorily mobilised in the proper sense, but stuck your hand up for an adventure holiday which you thought would be more exciting than your civvy job (presuming that you had one). To me that doesn't show commitment, but lack of.
well said
Both regular and Ta can be either, united by the desire to give service
or wrangled by the shortsighted.
What matters is greatest total good, to both society and MOD.
 
#6
If people want to go on tours, they may as well join the Regular Army. The TA is for people who want a civvy career but are also prepared to strengthen the Army if the need arises.

I don't have a problem with TA soldiers who have never been on a tour. They've signed up to a commitment that if they're needed, they'll go - it's just that they haven't been needed.

War is a nasty thing, not an adventure holiday - but the people who keep bragging about how many tours they've done and belittling those who've not done a tour evidently haven't got a commitment to a civvy job and equally aren't prepared to commit themselves to full-time service.

You may also consider that your ability to go on tour probably relied on work put in by people who hadn't been on tour, so you may wish to thank them rather than despise them.

PS

My one tour was TELIC 2. I was mobilised because I was needed. I presume that you weren't compulsorily mobilised in the proper sense, but stuck your hand up for an adventure holiday which you thought would be more exciting than your civvy job (presuming that you had one). To me that doesn't show commitment, but lack of.
My thoughts exactly.

The only TA lads who should leave are those who aren't PREPARED to go on tour - don't want to. Those who'd be mobilised and try and gain exemption.

There are plenty of people in the TA who seem to want to go on tour as many times as possible and train all the time for it. Why they don't join the regulars is beyond me.
 
#7
I think that if you are not willing to deploy on Ops / in support of, or on an FTRS contract, then whats the point! I am currently mobilised, got a letter from my parent unit saying there is a possiblity of not having a place when I demob! To have some non deployed bounty hunter, to take my spot is a joke. Also why is it that the guys who deploy get promotions held up, and the bounty hunters who never go further than the TAC gates get the promotion!

Rant over

Stilts
 
#8
If people want to go on tours, they may as well join the Regular Army. The TA is for people who want a civvy career but are also prepared to strengthen the Army if the need arises.

I don't have a problem with TA soldiers who have never been on a tour. They've signed up to a commitment that if they're needed, they'll go - it's just that they haven't been needed.

War is a nasty thing, not an adventure holiday - but the people who keep bragging about how many tours they've done and belittling those who've not done a tour evidently haven't got a commitment to a civvy job and equally aren't prepared to commit themselves to full-time service.

You may also consider that your ability to go on tour probably relied on work put in by people who hadn't been on tour, so you may wish to thank them rather than despise them.

PS

My one tour was TELIC 2. I was mobilised because I was needed. I presume that you weren't compulsorily mobilised in the proper sense, but stuck your hand up for an adventure holiday which you thought would be more exciting than your civvy job (presuming that you had one). To me that doesn't show commitment, but lack of.
Puttees - you are a bounty-hunting REMF.

In case you hadn't noticed, the country is engaged in long-term operations, and the money to support those operations is extremely tight.

So either be prepared to mobilise and contribute, or hand your kit in. It is not acceptable to draw continual MTDs and Bounties without stepping up to the plate. The TA exists to support the Regular Army. It is not there for you to be able to big-time it down at the TAC. It is not a social club. It does not exist to provide you with £1600 per year tax free to run a sports car, go on posh holidays or buy your wife a new kitchen.

The fact that you gladly boast of not mobilising for over 7 years demonstrates that your unit head shed has a warped sense of priorities. How have you not been weeded out for being a waster?
 
#9
In some units I have found that the TA are aching to deploy - my company had 10 spaces for TA attachments for Herrick 13, and we have 20+ applicants. It may be a case of that they bare willing, but unable to get a space, or that they have other commitments (work won't let them go etc) which prevent them.

There are plenty of wasters in the Regs who have not toured for years either - either through dubious downgrading whenever tour looms or selected postings which mean they won't be leaving these fair shores any time soon. How about we focus on these first...
 
#10
There are those of us in the TA who will not deploy on tours in the future, not because we are war-dodgers but because we are no longer suitable for the types of slots that are available. When I was younger I mobilised as a BCR for GW1 and then did three stints in Bosnia in jobs varying from watchkeeping to Adjutant and a brief spell in NI. Now as a elderly Major I don't really see what I would bring to the Afghan operation, other than obviously gallantry, panache, style and an appetite for Cadbury's fruit and nut.

However we can continue to serve and fulfil important roles in training and administration. I myself am in a UK ops role and so feel my paltry MTD total annually is justified. Every day I can add value by not making either the first responders or the military component look like cnuts in the event of a UK drama - be it flood, famine or pestilence!

Whereas I really don't think as a watchkeeper or SO2 J4 Paperclips I will shorten TWOT by one day.

There are however those in the TA who do not support the generation of the TA, are not involved in "real" work and who are tying up PIDs, absorbing MTDs and bounty and frankly do not bring much to the picnic. Just as, as Timble points out, there are similar regulars.

I cannot help thinking that the OP is being a bit holier than thou about this. If it is the case that "you are only as good as your last tour" then how do we generate the next mobilisation cohort? What about recruitment and retention? Welfare? The dear lord knows how bad the Regular Army is at looking after the welfare of mobilized troops...
 

OldSnowy

LE
Moderator
Book Reviewer
#11
Puttees - you are a bounty-hunting REMF.

In case you hadn't noticed, the country is engaged in long-term operations, and the money to support those operations is extremely tight. So what? Money is tight due to many reasons, but why should that mean that the Reserves should be used to save the Government money? Also, it is no longer really a'long term Op' - there undoubtedly won't be any HERRICK in two years time - so hunt those medals fast!

So either be prepared to mobilise and contribute, or hand your kit in. Rubbish. He is a Reservist, not a cheap susbtitute for an expensive Regular. Do you have any concept of what a "Reserve" is? Do you have any idea what his Trade is, or what requirement there is for it? It is not acceptable to draw continual MTDs and Bounties without stepping up to the plate. Yes it most certainly is! The TA exists to support the Regular Army. It is not there for you to be able to big-time it down at the TAC. It is not a social club. Oh yes it is - that's a major part of being in the TA. If you have not worked that out yet, you are particularly unobservant. get involved in TA recruiting, and you'll find that it's not just the thought of fighting Taliban Helmand that gets people in - or keeps them in. It's comradeship, being with great mates, socialising together, and being part of something with a long and proud tradition. Plus it sells beer. It does not exist to provide you with £1600 per year tax free to run a sports car, go on posh holidays or buy your wife a new kitchen. Yes it is; that is the prime reason why the Bounty exists - to recompense you for having done something extra, put something back into society, missed opportunities for overtime at work, and been prepared to put your life on the line when necessary - note, when necessary, not just when the Govt is short of cash, as is the case now.

The fact that you gladly boast of not mobilising for over 7 years demonstrates that your unit head shed has a warped sense of priorities. How have you not been weeded out for being a waster?
Waster? He's been turning up, probably at the cost of increased promotion and success in his normal job, for years. this demonstrated greater commitment than abandoning your real job to play soldiers for a year. You'd no doubt be happy if all wasters were sacked - the cooks, storemen, drivers, civvy Clerks, etc., to allow more time for you to prepare for Ops - but who'd do all the masty Admin for you then?


I'm afraid this post illustrates the effects of the demise of the TA as a Reserve force, and its present use by the Regular Army as a source of cheap, disposable labour. The key quesion to answer is - do you really, genuinely think that if there were sufficient Regulars, that they would be mobilising anyone apart from the odd specialist? No, of course not. The Regular Army have always been more than willing to abandon the TA at a shot if that meant more cash for them - the situation still holds. It's only political pressure that keeps the TA going at all.

The TA is being used, and has responded to the task exceptionally well. Trouble is, this is not a long-term basis for any sort of Reserve Force.

In short - if you like going on tour so much, join the Army.
 
#12
I have spoken out on this subject a fair bit on here and have taken some flack from those whose nerves I have touched.
Puttees, thats horse bolloeux that those who serially tour have no job life etc. Everytime I go to Chilwell, I meet the very best of the TA. Those who bring a wealth of experience and variety of roles to the regs. They are prepared however to make sacrifices and do what is right. I know one guy who mobilised just before me, went on a short deployment and stayed on for PDT/ H13 even though he had an excellent job and was young enough to wait until another tour came around. Gleaming.
I have also seen Regular rear party types continually avoiding tours, keeping there cushty little stores/MT jobs failing PFT's and being fat biffs. I find that more distasteful.
Anyway with the draw down of Herrick on the horizon it won't matter. Those who contributed Fcuk all to TELIC/HERRICK will still be there after its done drawing pay and rations ready to do their bit against an illusory/non existant enemy. In time I hope they will take a good hard look at themselves and realise they didn't do their job for real when the opportunity arose. That's enough for me.
 
#13
The TA is being used, and has responded to the task exceptionally well. Trouble is, this is not a long-term basis for any sort of Reserve Force.

In short - if you like going on tour so much, join the Army.
OldSnowy, I hope you remember that the next time someone from the TA blubs they don't get the same as a reg yet its supposed to be "one army"
 
#14
OldSnowy, I hope you remember that the next time someone from the TA blubs they don't get the same as a reg yet its supposed to be "one army"
'One army' is only a concept, not reality...
 
#15
Although its not widely known here, I've not been on tour. I was faced with a dilemma; do I hand my kit in as non-deployer, or do I do a job that might be of use to my Bn / the wider TA?

Given that I have enough Quals to be of use to the RTC, I put a good deal of effort in as a visiting Instructor. I'm happy enough with that; I'm doing something of use.

Naturally some out there on the High Moral Ground will say I'm a wardodger or similar.

Meh.
 
#16
Bravo_Bravo. The RTC's do sterling work. If that is what you are good at then all well and good. You will lack credibility however when talking about certain things especially when most TA infantry have at least done one tour. If you are happy with that and accept having the pish ripped out of you by your peers then fine. Fair play to you.
 
#17
Max

Naturally I'd much rather do a tour.

In all honesty, the only time I've had adverse comment ( to my face, that is ) about my lack of tour was from one person who really should have known better.

BB
 
#19
Puttees - you are a bounty-hunting REMF.

In case you hadn't noticed, the country is engaged in long-term operations, and the money to support those operations is extremely tight.

So either be prepared to mobilise and contribute, or hand your kit in. It is not acceptable to draw continual MTDs and Bounties without stepping up to the plate. The TA exists to support the Regular Army. It is not there for you to be able to big-time it down at the TAC. It is not a social club. It does not exist to provide you with £1600 per year tax free to run a sports car, go on posh holidays or buy your wife a new kitchen.

The fact that you gladly boast of not mobilising for over 7 years demonstrates that your unit head shed has a warped sense of priorities. How have you not been weeded out for being a waster?
You didn't read his post did you?

He IS prepared to mobilise. He just doesn't stick his hand up at every opportunity.

The TA seems to have shifted roles from a place where, if in need, the regulars can call on additional manpower; to a place where you can go on tours just like the regulars, but without having to train every day in between.

Is that what you regulars want? Absolutely fecking not, because you cost the MoD money every single day between tours, the TA only cost the MoD money when in TA time - some weekends and tuesdays. The MoD have already talked about shifting to that style of soldiering, as TA soldiers, man-for-man, are far cheaper to maintain than regulars.

So, if he does every other weekend, that's 2 days in 14 - 1/7 of his year is spent being paid by the army. The regulars are spending 7/7 of the year being paid by the Army. Subsequently, if you spend more than a year between tours, you are soaking up more MTDs than he is by spending 7 between tours!

I'm not suggesting if the TA was used as our entire workforce for modern operations that everything would be better. But it looks good for the bean counters, doesn't it? Only pay guys on tour +30MTDs a year, where the regulars get paid on tour +365 MTDs per year.
 
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