no lessons learnt from the falklands

Discussion in 'Falkland Islands (Op CORPORATE)' started by smoojalooge, Dec 14, 2005.

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  1. This has not been reported in the press, but I was informed today that the new aircraft carriers are being built with no ground to air defence capabilities.

    After the number of lives lost in the Falklands due to insuffient air defence on board ship after the cut backs of the 1970s. Surely it should ring alarm bells.

    My sources inform me the ships carry no defence what so ever and BAE are making a complete hash of it.

    (PTP PM for sources)

    Edited to give more info
  2. Probably papers talking shite again, pretty sure they will have Phalanx or Goalkeeper. Unless they think the Aircraft on board negate the need?
  3. Goatman

    Goatman LE Book Reviewer

    Zip and Zap are Close Engagement weapons.....a few years ago, the organic Air Defence system (Sea Dart) was removed from the Invincible class to enable a longer ski-jump, IIRC.....according to Navy News circa 1999 anyway.

    The concept of ops is that CVS will ALWAYS have both their own CAP overhead AND a supporting screen of Type 45s in attendance. The 'new' shipborne anti-air weapon is called PAAMS.

    ( Right, now which of the red-tops is going to cut+paste this explanation word for word.....that'll be , um, 67 words at £1.20 a word ...that's oh, call it a round £90 to ARRSE please)

    Le Chevre
  4. Checking the web for stories finds

    Which includes a comment about 16 cell VLS Aster system with the dreaded words "...if budget were made available..."

    RAF Eurofighter is being provided without a gun cos IT's too expensive. But as few Flyboy Magazines pointed out the cost of fitting a gun was equal to the cost of ONE Typhoon.

    This is were rothering to read comes into use. The USN's new Fighter in the 1960's, the F4, was sold as a missile armed fighter ONLY. Then Vietnam happened and the F4 flew CAP with Visual Identifaction RoE. Which meant that the F$ crew had to SEE their targets, confirm they were Mig 17 aned 19's and then try not to get shoot down by the F**k bigg cannon the Mog 17 and 19 carried whilst they ran away to gain range to launch missiles. Very Funny. At extra cost the F4e was developed which carried a cannon.

    Tell me No one will ever come up with RoE's that force us to do stupid things to obey them and I'll call you Tony
  5. Last I heard, the RAF Eurofighters are now all getting guns.
    There appears to be no chance of Aster being fitted to CVF (no surprise as it will always have a Type 45 Destroyer designed around PAAMS/Aster in attendance), but every model of it to date has shown Phalanx fitted. I'd be stunned if they were removed, particularly as it's a system that can simply be unbolted from ships being taken out of service and bolted straight on to CVF.
  6. having spent some time on ships recently and talked to RN Gunners... the Type 23s have no AD other than the very expensive VLSW and Harpoons...expcept a couple of 20mms and a few GPMGs, Seems the RN budget keepers are relying more on top end of the technology scale and the very bottom end of the scale with ZERO in between.

    The new carriers i hear will have GPMGs for Close in AD as well as the usual escort of Type 42s and thier replacements if they ever come into fruition. relying more on CAPs as mentioned.... however CAPs require flying conditions...incoming missles do not.

    big mistakes if you ask me.

    someone might end up with a nasty sore because of penny pinching.

  7. Are they building them with an Amphibian capability?

    I'll get my coat.......
  8. :-0

    Surface to Air Harpoon! Bloody hell, you wouldn't need a direct hit...
  9. No he doesn't mean that harpoon, he means an actual Harpoon, like what you shoot whales with. Wouldn't surprise me if the budget won't even stretch that far either.

  10. I was under the impression that although the new carriers are going to be built without surface to air weapon systems the ones on the existing carriers were going to be retrofitted.

    The RAF Typhoons are being ordered with guns but no ammo I believe. The reason is that the lack of gun would affect CoG of the a/c and its cheaper to fit the gun that a lump of concrete or something.
  11. Or the rope ..........

  12. My brother in LAw was on the Typhoon implementation team about 15-20 years ago. They told them back then cannons are no use for todays fast jets in air to air combat and it was best to have detachable cannon pods. I believe it was the RAF who INSISTED they have a cannon and look whats happened since, crab morons!
  13. Typoon is to be fitted for Guns but not with , Basically it is there but not ''wired up''
    This means no use at all as a CAS or ECAS platform . Even Tornado F-3 can provide
    a limited E-CAS service with its 27mm cannon.So no doubts it will be up to the yanks
    to bale any Brit troops in contact out.Shame that the JAGS are on there way out .Once again
    the Great from Great Britain is going as the Government water down our Armed forces for the sake
    of money .Dont even start on Brimstone !
  14. PW3 - story I heard is that once a certain senior RAF officer retires, his decision to delete the cannon capability will be overturned. Various people are going around making loud noises about CAS/ECAS and the ability to fire warning shots at stray aircraft that need intercepting, etc, etc - there are rumours/suggestions that the money may mysteriously be found shortly after 3 Sqn gains full IOC with the aircraft and starts standing QRA.
  15. I just spent some time typing out a reply only to have an error come up when I tried to post it. Grrrr.

    Said there was no real need to a carrier to have a SAM system.......because if they get that close. Carrierborne fighters provide much better protection for a whole task group.

    However CVF is in service until after 2012, and after the Sea Harrier is retired early in March 2006, the RN will have no organic air defence. I don't think there are any plans to store aircraft just in case. This issue has been discussed widely on a number of threads elsewhere, not leastPPRuNe - Sea Jet. Very long thread but if you speed read...

    At the time, the Government said the gap would be for "only" six years, as the new carriers (CVF) and the JSF to go with them would enter service in 2012. They also said that frigates and destroyers would provide shorter range defence, and the new Type 45 would start entering service in 2007, and offer a huge leap in anti air capability.

    Since then......

    CVF delayed. In Service date unknown but after 2012.
    JSF: Same as above.
    T45: First of class delayed until 2009, rest of class also delayed.
    Frigate/Destroyer numbers cut by approx 20% to 25, despite the First Sea Lord and CINCFLEET stating that the minimum number was need is "about thirty".

    And cuts to the rest of the three Services mean that losing a chartered merchant ship (remember ATLANTIC CONVEYOR) result is losing a singnificant percentage of helicopters, tanks, warriors etc. And in TELC 95% of stuff used by UK forces went by sea. Without fighter cover our enough escorts...........the potential for disaater is high.