Nick Harvey in the Yorkshire Post

Discussion in 'The Intelligence Cell' started by Sven, Feb 22, 2008.

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  1. Nick Harvey lays out the Lib Dem view on The Way Forward for Defence.

    "You do not need to be a "hawk" to want to see improvements. As a party, the Liberal Democrats opposed the war in Iraq; a war we deemed ill-founded, ill-principled, and illegal. Yet, regardless of our political standpoint towards operations, we cannot deny the moral obligation we have to our Armed Forces to uphold the "duty of care". Wherever and whenever they are sent, they must have the resources, equipment and manpower that they need to do the job."

    Our troops must be given the help they need to do the job

    Edited because the quote box isn't working
  2. Not seeing anything there about increasing the budget. So he's still for ditching the nukes?
  3. First thing a Lib Dem MoD will do is cancel the third trenchant of Typhoon
  4. More likely, wake up and wonder what all the bright lights are :roll:
  5. lib dems are cnuts. Say anything to be elected. Thankfully, they never will because only 12% of the electorate are that stupid.
  6. Ord_Sgt

    Ord_Sgt RIP

    Which shows how stupid the lib dems are as we would still have to pay for them anyway. :oops:
  7. Check the contracts first. A) we're paying for them b) we'd still pay for even if we managed to cancel the order because the books will still have to balance so the Typhoons we have got will end up costing as much as the whole order.......
  8. Is this right Kit - serious question? Is there an official source where can I find out about this?
  9. Ord_Sgt

    Ord_Sgt RIP

    Yes it's true, it was written into the contract, by us to stop the Germans pulling out. Oh the irony.

    Google tranch 3 clause I think to find the details.
  10. The contract is commercially sensitive, but it is known that there are penalty clauses in the contract that are said to be such that it would make it most cost effective to buy Tranche 3 and then disassemble the things for spares upon delivery.

    The bigger question is why would the Lib Dems want to cancel it? To appease the Torygraph and Max Hastings, a man who knows less than the square root of FA about air power, but loathes the Typhoon because some of it's built by cough, splutter, Europeans? Because it's unpopular in many quarters here on Arrse?

    What you're saying, Sven, is that the first thing a Lib Dem MoD would do is a major cut in RAF capability, that would, by about 2015, leave the RAF facing serious difficulties in providing support to land forces - by that point, the GR4 fleet will be facing ever more serviceability problems; the Harriers will be beginning to reach the point where the rear fuselage fatigue issues that are predicted begin to impact upon availability and the JCA will not have reached IOC, even if there's no further slippage in the timeline for its employment. A cut which would cost so much in penalties, there'd be just enough to buy a new suite of office chairs for main building.

    A response of 'we'll buy cheap A-10s from the Americans' doesn't cut it, since as debated here before, while it is a cracking CAS platform, it's a highly specialised capability that we can't afford if defence spending is going to remain at around its current percentage of GDP, and which will be hopeless should be ever need to mount a greater level of QRA.

    The first thing a Lib Dem MoD should do is to announce that it's delighted that Chancellor Cable has handed over 25% of the budget taken from the quango system that burgeoned under Gordon Brown to the MoD, allowing the RAF to get the new fast jets it needs as well as improvements to the transport fleet, the RN to get the ships it needs and the Army to get the SH it requires (Land holds the funding line) as well as a number of the other items.

    Sven, if the Lib Dems want to be serious about defence, headline grabbing cuts to an enormously capable aircraft (which people are beginning to appreciate offers rather more in certain areas than the supposedly superior JSF) aren't the way to go. If Nick Clegg/Vince Cable/Nick Harvey want to be taken seriously on this, let me suggest the following:

    1. Announce that the obscene and profligate spending on quangos will be cut by 50% in the first year of a Lib Dem administration.

    2. Announce that of that £60 Billion (yes, billion), 10% of this will be directed to the MoD, allowing the services to obtain items of kit that they need. We'll even let you spend the other 90% on things that will appeal more to Lib Dem voters... :)

    3. Inform the assorted luvvies and people who've made espousing political correctness a lucractive profession that you're terribly sorry that they will have to put forward credible arguments for money now that they can't rely upon the state funded vehicles for half-baked campaigns with the intellectual depth of the dregs in my coffee cup that have kept them going for so long, but if they don't like it - bad luck.

    Give us a party that commits to spending our taxes sensibly on things that actually matter, rather than constant salami-slicing caused by the profligate waste of cash on things that don't but which have some sort of protected status because they're politically correct and their proponents can moan long and loud in an articulate fashion to the BBC, the Grauniad and the Independent.

    Do that and even I might vote for you (and believe me, that'd be akin to Ted Heath, were he still alive, voting for a complete British withdrawal from the EU).
  11. Yep....At the time the boxheads were maiking very serious noises about using the DDR Mig 29 and upgrading them as the MIG 29 was very tasty in 1989.....This whole arguement must have added at least 5 years plus to the Program.......

    The JSF and Typhoon both show their age. The Typhoon comes from an age when BIG f**k intakes were the bees knees, the JSF from when they realised that BIG intakes equals BIG radar return. Typhoon is always going to have a bigger return than a JSF........ BAE claim that Typhoon has the same RCS as the F-22 unless head on......
  12. He can say what he wants he'll never be in Government.

  13. If Sven reports it correctly (and I can't be bothered to read through all their policies) it seems that LibDem defence policy is written by people who can't use Google.

    Gives you that warm, secure feeling, eh?
  14. So he choses to lay out his stall in the Yorkshire Post - hoping not many people will read it I suppose.

    Lots of nice words and platitudes, but no hard facts and more importantly no figures. Exactly the same thing Sven slates the Conservatives for doing.

    Promises of a defence review every time a new government comes into power - not much flip-flopping going to happen there then. Ditching tranche 3 has been systematicly discredited before. Ditch Trident and replacement with all the impact on submarine fleet, support bases and Britain's position on Securtiy Council and world stage.

    Implication is that all procurement woes can be fixed with a good dose of liberal common sense. Just as well they won't get in.

    As a potential Defence Secretary Nick Harvey does have one redeeming feature - an interest in beer!