NI - They Really Haven’t Gone Away.

What did I make up?
If you two are just going back and forth "he said, she said" it would be helpful to the rest of us if you just got a room. Thanks now.
 

Mike Barton

War Hero
OK you asked to give one example of a leading Provo killed in Tyrone in the late 1980s by Loyalists.

So what is a leading Provo? Well let's go with this description by none other than Mr Gerard Adams MP, I think he might know a leading Provo when he sees one.

"John was one of those iconic republican leaders who in the bad times stood firm and resolute and who led from the front. He never allowed the threats or violence of the British or the unionists to prevent him from doing his duty and pursuing republican objectives.
....
We will remember John as a freedom fighter, a political activist, a founding member of the civil rights movement, a political prisoner, a negotiator, an elected representative, a Sinn Féin leader,"


Who is he referring to? John Joe Davey.

Who was killed.

By Loyalists.

In Tyrone.

In 1989.

Who is making what up?
 
It’s occurred to me that if the British army had to return to Northern Ireland in large numbers, there would be very few personnel with experience of operating there, especially at SNCO and Major level.
Same applies to the opposition in the main...

Such a scenario remains in fantasy land and somehow assumes that groups of PIRA volunteers had the balls to stand and fight. This was not 1916. Taking on a lightly manned and isolated checkpoint or RUC station is one thing, exposure to the lethal violence of a full on night assault by a British Infantry Battle Group is beyond comprehension and would have put paid to any delusions of grandeur by PIRA.
Which would have been thoroughly excellent - though it looks as though whoever labelled this as a Tet offensive did not read to the bottom of the page (the bit about the near destruction of the Viet Cong in an ill conceived and premature attack).
 
And children, that is the end of Jackanory for this week.
It will be far funnier if that imaginary scenario came to pass.

Think about it Loyalists are provoking the nationalists at every opportunity and have already declared the PSNI their enemy. Dissidents are doing pretty much the same.

Over here the papers are reporting the risk of a recession and possible civil disorder and the army is woefully under strength.
 
Most of the info about the previous gun running was supplied by the bankrupt businessman who had been roped in to provide the shipping.

Although the seizure of the Eksund was a huge intelligence success it revealed one of the biggest British intelligence failures in the past century. The UK and Irish authorities simply had no inkling of the scale of the importing from Libya nor of the sophisticated logistics and network of bunkers that had been built across the Republic. So shocked were the Irish authorities that they launched Operation Mallard a countrywide search involving tens of thousands or Gardai and troops looking for the smuggled weaponry. I recall warnings issued by the RUC at Christmastime 1987 that the coming year would see a major offensive by the IRA.

The Libyan weapons were intended for the hawks, mostly centering on the East Tyrone Brigade, who wanted to launch what was described as a mini "Tet" Offensive around the Clogher Valley. This was designed as a bid to seize a large chunk of rural Ulster (coincidentally much of the territory I propose in my fanciful incursion theory) with large bodies of men armed with AKs, heavy machine guns, even flame throwers. It would be the hawks' last chance to show the Adams/McGuinness faction in Belfast and Derry that the war could be won militarily before they gave up and went down their peace route. Like Tet it would probably eventually fail but the huge military effort required to defeat it plus the world wide coverage would be designed to expose the hopelessness of the British position in NI.

Of course while 1988 was a serious year with quite a few "spectaculars" launched by the IRA on the back of their previous campaign of destroying rural police stations, no such offensive occurred. Mainly this was because the hawks in East Tyrone had been wiped out in Loughgall and over the course of 1987-89 most of the leading hawks in Tyrone and County Derry were killed by British special forces or loyalists. When the Eksund was seized, and the guy on board the Eksund who had placed the explosives designed to scuttle the ship if she was intercepted went below as the French approached to discover all of his devices had been made inoperable by someone either on board or in Libya before the Eksund sailed.

The Eksund was captured, the scale of the arms importation was revealed, the Irish and British authorities were on the alert, the hawks were steadily wiped out.

And the peace process was secure, and Adams and McGuinness were happy. A lot of diehard Republicans were, and to this day remain, very suspicious about how that all played out.
Your 4th para makes it clear why Mrs T was absolutely correct to green light shoot to kill, at least for as long as the political environment would permit.
The Loughgall 'Martyrs' would have killed many more, and would probably be Shinner pols now, sucking on the tit of the UK Treasury.
 
I have the greatest of respect for the men and women of the PSNI, they have a tough job and carry it out professionally but there can be no denying the force does not have the "robust" nature of the old RUC, for better or for worse.

That robust nature led to many deaths, both of officers and civilians, that in hindsight and with more circumspection and discretion could have been prevented. This is not the case today where the PSNI adopts a "safety first" approach on many occasions, leaving the scene or not going there if there is a possibility of a threat to officers or where their presence could exacerbate a situation. It's a fine balance and without the military backup that the RUC had, it is no surprise that they approach situations warily.

However, the situation today could also lead to deaths, in the tragic crush at the teenage disco in March the PSNI declined to go in for fear of attack, I don't suppose this made too much of a difference but who knows how this could play out in future incidents when seconds matter.
That Cookstown situation was just cowardice in uniform
 
Funnily enough some bloke just got on the train wearing a T Shirt with something very like the Sinn Feinn logo on the chest. Seeing as its on its way to Hereford, that seems a quite strong fashion statement.
 
The systematic eradication by both Special Forces and some remarkably professional loyalist gunmen of the hardest line Provo units in counties Tyrone and Derry (although not South Armagh, where they operated much more independently of Belfast control) in the period 1987 (a few months after Adams got SF to take its seats in the Dail leading to the split that saw the old-time militarists depart) right up until the ceasefire, was I am sure entirely coincidental with the development of Adams' peace process.

(Did I sound convincing?)
Nice one....
 

The RUC claimed he was a non combatant. Sinn fein claimed he wasn't involved in the IRA. His family denied it as well.

South down republican facebook page, 3 years back.

"Today, South Down Republican's remember with pride the 27th Anniversary of Óglach Loughlin Maginn, South Down Brigade, Óglaigh na hÉireann, who was brutally murdered by the British State in his home at Rathfriland, Co Down.

Loughlin was born and grew up in the rural market town of Rathfriland, which neighbours nearby Hilltown and Kilcoo at the foothills of the Mourne Mountains. He was described by all who knew him as "popular" and "easy going" with a keen interest in motor cars. After leaving school, Loughlin began work at his father's poultry business where his work duties saw him travel throughout the North as a dealer and delivery driver. Like many young men of his time, Loughlin gravitated towards the Republican movement in 1981 having been deeply affected by the injustices inflicted upon Republicans during the Hunger Strikes. During this time, Loughlin was subsequently arrested and brought to a local RUC station where he was approached by Special Branch in attempt to recruit him as informant. Without hesitation, Loughlin resisted their attempts and was later released. He would later record a written account of his interrogation to his family, where he noted "If i didnt do it, they said the UDR and Police would harass me all the time. They said they would put the word around that I was in the IRA and that there would be plenty of good loyalist Protestants willing to take a shot at me if they thought I was involved in the IRA". In the years which would follow, the promises made during his arrest would be put to action. Loughlin and his family were consistently harassed in their daily lives and suffered under heavy surveillance at the hands of the state forces. So much did this harassment intensify, Loughlin was prosecuted over numerous times for minor road traffic offences and was suspended from driving, proving a massive hindrance on his working and family capacities. Shortly after, his young wife was forced to give up driving such was the scale of the frequent stop and searches by state forces. One particular incident of which was filed by Loughlin's family solicitor was of a threat to his life at a UDR checkpoint outside Newry in November 1988. In specific terms, the soldier would be quoted during the exchange with saying "I've a wee word of warning, I’ll stiff you when I get the chance". As with the promise of harassment, this promise of execution would sadly follow on the 25th of August 1989. In strikingly similar fashion to the murder of County Antrim IRA volunteer Gerard Casey in Rasharkin 5 months earlier, a gang of 2 state sponsored UDA assassins would encroach the home of another young family man of four. In desperate attempt to protect his wife and young family, Loughlin was brutally shot on the stairway of his home and died shortly after as neighbours and family attempted to comfort him whilst frantically awaiting paramedics. He was 28 years old. His funeral took place at his hometown parish church at St Mary's in Rathfriland with burial in the adjoining cemetery. Not unusual throughout the conflict, no trappings or military honours were displayed during the funeral at the request and of respect to Loughlin’s family. Such was the frustration of the Loyalist UDA to prove justification for their cowardly deed, copies of private and confidential security force documentation would appear on walls in prominent Loyalist areas throughout Belfast. Including details and photographs citing Loughlin as "heavily traced PIRA", the documents would also list high grade and detailed intelligence gathered on over 200 Republican suspects throughout the 6 counties by the British security forces. Such exposure would launch the beginning of what became known as the "Stevens Inquiries" where the undoubted collusion between Loyalist Militias and the British state would come to light. Within weeks, 2 serving members of the UDR would be charged and convicted of Loughlin’s murder. Months later, not content on murdering Loughlin and devastating his young family, his grave was desecrated with visible attempts to interfere with his coffin. Some months following his murder, Loughlin’s mother Bonnie spoke to a BBC panorama documentary "Ulsters Regiment: A Question of Loyalty" where she would state "I expected it from 1981, somebody had their finger on the trigger from 1981".

Proudly remembered by friends and comrades in the County Down Republican Commemoration Committee."
I love this.
Republicans never really got irony.
Their members did this 100s of times at the homes of Police and UDR men, but they protesteth so very very much when it happens to one of theirs.
 
My statement was that British Special Forces and Loyalists killed leading republicans in Counties Derry and Tyrone between 1987 and 1994. That is a statement of fact.

Now you can for whatever reason decide to narrow that down say that no significant Republicans were killed by Loyalists in Tyrone in the late 80s, and even if your statement were correct, it would not detract from the overall veracity of the statement I made, ie: during that period, in those locations, those parties killed Republicans; that fact stands even if you were correct about the specifics of an arbitrary timeframe and location.

However you are incorrect. In Tyrone in the late 80s several republicans, including a Sinn Fein councilor, were killed by Loyalists.

There is presumably a point to your hair-splitting and nit-picking but it escapes me.
Was your final - peevish - line neccessary?
His enquiry seems a perfectly legitimate one, in terms of seeking accuracy
 
Wow, and yet the hair splitting continues.

Let me spell it out for you in simple terms as basic English comprehension doesn't seem to be your strong point.

In the period 1987-1994, dozens of Republicans were killed.

They were killed in many places, but mainly in the Tyrone/Derry area.

Among the many who were killed were leading Provisionals (many of them Sinn Fein members).

The agents primarily responsible for killing those Republicans in various places throughout that period, were British Special Forces and Loyalist paramilitaries.

All of the above are facts. You can dispute that one guy wasn't a leading Republican or another wasn't recognised as IRA but was Sinn Fein or a family member, or that in one particular county in one particular year one particular group did not kill one specific type of Republican, but that does not change the overall thrust of my basic, and rather simple, point.

I hope this clears up your confusion.
You post interesting stuff.
Ask yourself if you need to be such a tw.t about it at times
 
OK you asked to give one example of a leading Provo killed in Tyrone in the late 1980s by Loyalists.

So what is a leading Provo? Well let's go with this description by none other than Mr Gerard Adams MP, I think he might know a leading Provo when he sees one.

"John was one of those iconic republican leaders who in the bad times stood firm and resolute and who led from the front. He never allowed the threats or violence of the British or the unionists to prevent him from doing his duty and pursuing republican objectives.
....
We will remember John as a freedom fighter, a political activist, a founding member of the civil rights movement, a political prisoner, a negotiator, an elected representative, a Sinn Féin leader,"


Who is he referring to? John Joe Davey.

Who was killed.

By Loyalists.

In Tyrone.

In 1989.

Who is making what up?
Note the way Jarry uses 'Unionist' where Loyalist paramilitary would be the correct term.
The c.nt.
 
If you two are just going back and forth "he said, she said" it would be helpful to the rest of us if you just got a room. Thanks now.
You might be comfortable with people coming on here and suggesting there was organised collusion between the Security Forces and Loyalist terrorists but I am not, and I will continue to challenge it every time I see it.
 
OK you asked to give one example of a leading Provo killed in Tyrone in the late 1980s by Loyalists.

So what is a leading Provo? Well let's go with this description by none other than Mr Gerard Adams MP, I think he might know a leading Provo when he sees one.

"John was one of those iconic republican leaders who in the bad times stood firm and resolute and who led from the front. He never allowed the threats or violence of the British or the unionists to prevent him from doing his duty and pursuing republican objectives.
....
We will remember John as a freedom fighter, a political activist, a founding member of the civil rights movement, a political prisoner, a negotiator, an elected representative, a Sinn Féin leader,"


Who is he referring to? John Joe Davey.

Who was killed.

By Loyalists.

In Tyrone.

In 1989.

Who is making what up?
If we leave to one side the fact that Galladuff is not in Tyrone.

Davey was a Sinn Fein councillor in his 60's who hadn't been actively hands on as a terrorist since the mid '70's or so. Is that really your idea of; 'the hardest line Provo units in counties Tyrone and Derry'?
 
You might be comfortable with people coming on here and suggesting there was organised collusion between the Security Forces and Loyalist terrorists but I am not, and I will continue to challenge it every time I see it.
Just bored with reams of poo poo head.
 

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