NI - They Really Haven’t Gone Away.

Mike Barton

War Hero
Because I can't think of a single significant Provo murdered by Loyalist terrorists in Tyrone during that time period.
My statement was that British Special Forces and Loyalists killed leading republicans in Counties Derry and Tyrone between 1987 and 1994. That is a statement of fact.

Now you can for whatever reason decide to narrow that down say that no significant Republicans were killed by Loyalists in Tyrone in the late 80s, and even if your statement were correct, it would not detract from the overall veracity of the statement I made, ie: during that period, in those locations, those parties killed Republicans; that fact stands even if you were correct about the specifics of an arbitrary timeframe and location.

However you are incorrect. In Tyrone in the late 80s several republicans, including a Sinn Fein councilor, were killed by Loyalists.

There is presumably a point to your hair-splitting and nit-picking but it escapes me.
 
My statement was that British Special Forces and Loyalists killed leading republicans in Counties Derry and Tyrone between 1987 and 1994. That is a statement of fact.

Now you can for whatever reason decide to narrow that down say that no significant Republicans were killed by Loyalists in Tyrone in the late 80s, and even if your statement were correct, it would not detract from the overall veracity of the statement I made, ie: during that period, in those locations, those parties killed Republicans; that fact stands even if you were correct about the specifics of an arbitrary timeframe and location.

However you are incorrect. In Tyrone in the late 80s several republicans, including a Sinn Fein councilor, were killed by Loyalists.

There is presumably a point to your hair-splitting and nit-picking but it escapes me.
It's not hair splitting. The SAS had significant success in killing some of the most dangerous PIRA terrorists in operation at that time. That had a huge effect on both morale and operational effectiveness of PIRA, particularly in Tyrone and it was a significant part of the reason we ended up with the first PIRA ceasefire.

Loyalist terrorists meanwhile were mainly killing random Catholics and occasionally managing to get a Republican, often more by luck than judgement. My personal view is that if they hadn't been doing it we might have got the PIRA ceasefire years earlier.

Your post deliberately implied that we were using Loyalist terrorists to illegally target senior Republicans. So my question still stands, who were these senior Republicans murdered by Loyalist terrorists in Tyrone and Londonderry between 1987 and 1994? It's your claim, you back it up.
 

Mike Barton

War Hero
Are you serious? Are you claiming that no Republicans were killed by Loyalists in Counties Derry and Tyrone in the seven years between 1987 and 1994?

Read Lost Lives if you are that uninformed I haven't the time to list them all.
 
Are you serious? Are you claiming that no Republicans were killed by Loyalists in Counties Derry and Tyrone in the seven years between 1987 and 1994?

Read Lost Lives if you are that uninformed I haven't the time to list them all.
That's not what I said. Your claim was;
'
The systematic eradication by both Special Forces and some remarkably professional loyalist gunmen of the hardest line Provo units in counties Tyrone and Derry
I am asking for evidence of that.
 
I provided it, the photo above.

Hair split all you want, the facts don't change.
The one that talks about Loyalists murdering Sinn Fein activists and family members of Republicans? How is that evidence of the systematic eradication of the hardest line Provo units?
 
My statement was that British Special Forces and Loyalists killed leading republicans in Counties Derry and Tyrone between 1987 and 1994. That is a statement of fact.
The SAS were understandly loathed by Republicans everywhere at the time. We were based in Londonderry in the early 90's and we had a Rifleman in our team, a mountain of Nottinghamshire man who due to a skin condition couldn't shave - the locals in the Creggan and the Bogside convinced themselves he was SF operating under cover of Green Troops and branded him openly as "SAS Man" and went to great lengths to point out that they 'knew he was SAS' and pounded him with as many bricks and bottles and even in one instance an actual explosive Coffee-Jar grenade on his actual team to take him out.

It was great fun having someone hated so much [even though it was a case of mistaken identity] serving among us.

The SAS did scare the bejesus out of the natives at the time, mainly for the reasons you stated.
 
It's not hair splitting. The SAS had significant success in killing some of the most dangerous PIRA terrorists in operation at that time. That had a huge effect on both morale and operational effectiveness of PIRA, particularly in Tyrone and it was a significant part of the reason we ended up with the first PIRA ceasefire.

Loyalist terrorists meanwhile were mainly killing random Catholics and occasionally managing to get a Republican, often more by luck than judgement. My personal view is that if they hadn't been doing it we might have got the PIRA ceasefire years earlier.

Your post deliberately implied that we were using Loyalist terrorists to illegally target senior Republicans. So my question still stands, who were these senior Republicans murdered by Loyalist terrorists in Tyrone and Londonderry between 1987 and 1994? It's your claim, you back it up.
I think part of the problem here is that at the time of some killings and even as recently as 2011 there has been either confusion or a mistaken belief that some of those PIRA volunteers who died were killed by British forces when in fact they had been victims of UVF attacks.
Semantics are also important in that it would be quite believable that such and such an event had occurred involving British soldiers if, and I emphasize the 'if', the PIRA men had been on an active operation. In the case of John Quinn, Malcolm Nugent and Swayne O'Donnell of the East Tyrone Brigade, killed in March 1991 near Cappagh, the trio were on route to a local pub (Boyles Bar) after stopping at a Fish and Chip shop while on a social outing but were ambushed by a UVF unit as they approached the bar. Two other civilians in different cars were also attacked but were uninjured.
 
Quite a few as I recall in Castlerock and Cappagh among others, I haven't got Lost Lives to hand I will check it out later?

Why?
Castlerock? I had forgotten about that.


ETA Its not called Gortree Park by Google. Only a couple of hundred meters from the Apostles Cottages as well.

Looking at the streetview I'd say the Provo was pushing his luck though.

Vhttps://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.162272,-6.7919076,3a,75y,22.34h,97.99t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1seD_3hYobwsm4bwM0HMqUYQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en
 
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Mike Barton

War Hero
The one that talks about Loyalists murdering Sinn Fein activists and family members of Republicans? How is that evidence of the systematic eradication of the hardest line Provo units?
Wow, and yet the hair splitting continues.

Let me spell it out for you in simple terms as basic English comprehension doesn't seem to be your strong point.

In the period 1987-1994, dozens of Republicans were killed.

They were killed in many places, but mainly in the Tyrone/Derry area.

Among the many who were killed were leading Provisionals (many of them Sinn Fein members).

The agents primarily responsible for killing those Republicans in various places throughout that period, were British Special Forces and Loyalist paramilitaries.

All of the above are facts. You can dispute that one guy wasn't a leading Republican or another wasn't recognised as IRA but was Sinn Fein or a family member, or that in one particular county in one particular year one particular group did not kill one specific type of Republican, but that does not change the overall thrust of my basic, and rather simple, point.

I hope this clears up your confusion.
 
D

Deleted 60082

Guest
It’s occurred to me that if the British army had to return to Northern Ireland in large numbers, there would be very few personnel with experience of operating there, especially at SNCO and Major level.
 
It’s occurred to me that if the British army had to return to Northern Ireland in large numbers, there would be very few personnel with experience of operating there, especially at SNCO and Major level.
If it returned to the levels of violence of 1970's, could the military provide the support again, in large numbers?
I don't even think the PSNI would have the numbers.
 
D

Deleted 60082

Guest
If it returned to the levels of violence of 1970's, could the military provide the support again, in large numbers?
I don't even think the PSNI would have the numbers.
Probably not. It would completely hollow out the army.
 
Petrol bombs being thrown at the Police now. Interesting comment
BBC News NI reporter Kevin Sharkey was at the scene:
He said: "Dozens of people, including tourists and some residents from the nearby Fountain estate, came onto the walls to watch the disorder down below in the Bogside."

Here is an opportunity to make some cash, tourist visits to watch the citizens fight each other and destroy infrastructure. Instead of people turning away from the place they'll come in droves if it's advertised properly!

 
Wow, and yet the hair splitting continues.

Let me spell it out for you in simple terms as basic English comprehension doesn't seem to be your strong point.

In the period 1987-1994, dozens of Republicans were killed.

They were killed in many places, but mainly in the Tyrone/Derry area.

Among the many who were killed were leading Provisionals (many of them Sinn Fein members).

The agents primarily responsible for killing those Republicans in various places throughout that period, were British Special Forces and Loyalist paramilitaries.

All of the above are facts. You can dispute that one guy wasn't a leading Republican or another wasn't recognised as IRA but was Sinn Fein or a family member, or that in one particular county in one particular year one particular group did not kill one specific type of Republican, but that does not change the overall thrust of my basic, and rather simple, point.

I hope this clears up your confusion.
I wasn't confused. I was just making sure that those who may not have much experience in NI knew you were making things up again.
 
Just stretch your imagination a little.

Say in 6 months time the result of a No Deal Brexit has lead to economic collapse and serious civil disorder in Great Britain which soaks up all available security forces on the mainland so no mutual aid available to the PSNI.

Add to that as a result of a no confidence vote in Boris which leads to the collapse of the Tory government and Labour who are sympathetic with Irish Republicanism take over.

The Irish border problem has not gone away and certain elements take advantage of this by provoking sectarian strife and engaging it acts of terrorism which are escalating rapidly.

The British and Irish Governments could appeal to the EU for assistance. That in turn could lead EU (Irish) security forces taking control of the border and those Nationalist areas on the NI side.
And children, that is the end of Jackanory for this week.
 
Petrol bombs being thrown at the Police now. Interesting comment
BBC News NI reporter Kevin Sharkey was at the scene:
He said: "Dozens of people, including tourists and some residents from the nearby Fountain estate, came onto the walls to watch the disorder down below in the Bogside."

Here is an opportunity to make some cash, tourist visits to watch the citizens fight each other and destroy infrastructure. Instead of people turning away from the place they'll come in droves if it's advertised properly!

Some would see this as terrorism:

1565683752454.png



I hope the PSNI come down hard, very hard on these Republican scumbags - they need to nip these 'emerging signs of terrorism' in the bud.
 

goodoldboy

MIA
Book Reviewer
Wow, and yet the hair splitting continues.

Let me spell it out for you in simple terms as basic English comprehension doesn't seem to be your strong point.

In the period 1987-1994, dozens of Republicans were killed.

They were killed in many places, but mainly in the Tyrone/Derry area.

Among the many who were killed were leading Provisionals (many of them Sinn Fein members).

The agents primarily responsible for killing those Republicans in various places throughout that period, were British Special Forces and Loyalist paramilitaries.

All of the above are facts. You can dispute that one guy wasn't a leading Republican or another wasn't recognised as IRA but was Sinn Fein or a family member, or that in one particular county in one particular year one particular group did not kill one specific type of Republican, but that does not change the overall thrust of my basic, and rather simple, point.

I hope this clears up your confusion.
I don't think that anyone is confused, that anyone here is hair-splitting or anyone disputes that many Republicans were killed between 1987 and 1994 and by whom. Perhaps your lengthy posts are part of the problem?

However, would you concede that it is hair-splitting, for instance, to say that the UDF were fighting all-comers at the time including fellow Unionists and even themselves sometimes? Because that is one of the things I remember.
 

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