NHS - Blame the nurses?

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by Pacifist_Jihadist, Mar 26, 2013.

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  1. BBC News - Nurses to first train in basic care, ministers to say

    Are they really trying to say that the core of the failures was a lack of compassion and empathy from nurses? They already do in-ward training as part of the degree as well as care in the community, surely that is enough? Throughout this saga the problems were always blamed in further up the ivory tower with stupid cost cutting and targets, why are they not getting targeted? Or if they are why not more severely? I had seriously hoped that such a scandal would finally lead to the real in depth no holds barred look at the system. Or am i missing something in all this?
  2. The professionalisation of nursing has (in my humble opinion) led to many nurses seeing the traditional facets of effective care as no longer their responsibility. They see themselves as demi-Doctors, with the 'dirt beneath the nails' work delegated to HCAs, who are paid barely above the minimum wage.

    Of course I have met some good ones but most are dreadful and are given too much responsibility. The best ones know the limits of their skill set. The worst (an increasing number) think they know everything.
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  3. You are probably missing something.
    The Community Nurse turned up to see my Mum a few weeks ago to give her a anti-flu injection.The nurse was in a very bad mood.Her parting shot "I didn't do four years training to end up giving injections to old people"
    Another occasion with a different nurse who eventually turned up four hours late to take a blood sample from my Mum.She stank of horses and horse shite,uniform was filthy,as were her hands.Mum asked her if she wanted to wash her hands the reply "It's ok - I washed them before I left home"
    That's not right is it?
  4. I will take issue with that, as both a qualified nurse and the father of a student nurse. I appreciate what you are saying but I fear that is too simplistic. Nursing has been driven to become the degree based course it is. This resulted at the same time in a reduction of those coming into training. Oh No! said the NHS we are now short of nurses. So a recruiting drive in the commonwealth and other areas such as the Phillipines takes place. There is in those areas a different nursing ethic. At the same time there is a growth in Auxillary/care sassistant/HCA roles all filling what appears to be a second tier of nurse. AH, but you say we got rid of the "enroled" nurse. Now it seems to be returning by stealth. So now we also have the issue of junior docotrs hours and numbers fallling. The good idea? Let nurses "extend their role" for there will also be savings to be made. Now we come to the nub of the matter, MONEY, as it is always thus.
    Nurses do care but in this ever money conscious world the care element is very expensive. Health policies that are money driven are not by their nature care driven, and if a caring attitude falls so it falls all over.
    I appreciate there are many thoughts in there and believe me I could write a thousand more. this is not a dig at you but a dig at the never ending medleing into care that has got us to this point.
    I'm going to stop now.
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  5. It is easy to blame the nurses and technically correct but the reality is that they were failed by the massive shift in their training that occurred in the late 1980's.

    Before then, nurses (like my wife) did a 3 year course that was almost entirely ward based. They did classroom periods as a group and the rest of the time they were split into 1's and 2's and put on different wards to get on the job training and experience of everything. This provided a fully rounded training and gave each nurse a look at each discipline and from that came the chance to decide on a specialty.

    Project 2000 came in in 1987 (I think ..). This changed the emphasis from on the job training to Degree qualified nurses who didn't see a patient til they were already 'qualified'. This meant that nurses felt that as Degree holders that they didn't have to have to do the 'menial' but important tasks that also force nurses to have patient contact. Nurses still couldn't do the tasks that Doctors do but made them feel superior to the older SEN and RGN with who they worked. Imagine having a sergeant come in who has never served in the ranks or even been on a base !!

    There was also the removal of the Matrons (belatedly reinstated) and the ethos of 'all-are-equal' and of risk avoidance and a lack of people willing to take responsibility as they realised that the bean counters and admin types who came to take over the running of the NHS wouldn't back them has meant that no-one is responsible for a thing.

    A system that wasn't broken and worked well was replaced by some ill-thought out experiment designed by someone as far from nursing as could be found. It has failed but no-one wants to say so.

    Nurses don't need to be graduates - they need to be knowledgable, interested in patient care and self-disciplined.
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  6. sees daft, but bare with me.

    many of the more, err... mature readers of this thread will remember during the 80's and 90's nurses being described in newspaper headlines as 'angels' - pay rise negotiations, NHS re-orgs etc... they could do no wrong, they were utterly caring, competent, altruistic, the embodiment of the values of the NHS.

    add that to the change within the profession caused by the Degree requirement, and you could begin to see why a very obnoxious 'up-their-own-arse' attitude might emerge.

    most here will be familiar with the spoilt brat who is never told 'no' by his adoring (and deluded) mummy and daddy, and who's every meagre achievment is met with fawning praise - think of your average premiership footballer - and who recieved constant gifts far in excess of either what his classmates would recieve, regardless of whether his behaviour deserved it, or whether his parents could afford it.

    put it in a white coat, give it an underling (the HCA) whose job is the dirty, menial bits - and you'd not be that surprised at the results.
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  7. The description of nurse training contained within is completely incorrect unfortunately, and contains many untruths as pronounced by some nurses who qualified pre-Project 2000 and who really should know better.

    Project 2000 has nothing at all to do with degrees. Project 2000 was a course that led up to a Diploma in nursing and involved roughly 50% of the time on the course on the ward on nursing placements. There are no nursing courses, nor have there been that I've ever been aware of where students 'didn't see a patient until they qualified'. Complete guff.

    I did a nursing degree in the late 90's. This was a 4 year that had been course shoe-horned into 3, basically by us having only 5 weeks vacation a year, and we spent marginally more time on the wards than our diploma counterparts. The extra year had originally been intended for dissertation and elective placement work. We had to do dissertations at the same time as being on placement for 37hrs a week.

    I've certainly never looked down on an SEN or a nurse with a diploma and I don't know any of my colleagues who have either. Having a degree doesn't make me a better or worse nurse than someone with a diploma or older qualification, it really only means that I've done a in depth research project and therefore bring a slightly different set of skills. Not better, just different.

    I've never believed the Matron argument either, it's a convenient one that doesn't really stand up to any scrutiny. The re-introduction of 'modern matrons' hasn't changed much. As an example, the recent significant lowering of MRSA rates has nothing to do with modern matrons, who are really just an extra layer of operational management, and far more to do with bringing domestic arrangements back in house from contract or a significant tightening up of the KPIs for these contracts.

    I think that many of the problems laid at the door of nurses are more to do with the ever increasing amount of paperwork and metrics they are instructed to complete and the gentle erosion in staffing numbers than any real hardening of their attitudes towards patients.
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  8. If you'd known the nurses of the pre Project 2000 generations then you would know that they were not arrogant and despite what the public may have thought of them, their workplace - and doctors in particular- made ****ing sure they were kept well in their place and made to feel the lowest of the low.

    Your reasons, however, have put far more eloquently than i could the reason for the attitude of our Armed Forces. Always whinging about pay - despite knowing the pay before they joined -, spouting bollox about serving their country - when all they usually want is to do the minimum of work and maximum of tossing off and going on the piss and then whinging when their occasionally dangerous job sees them injured. And always playing the 'green card' at every opportunity. And you talk of nurses being arrogant !!
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  9. Spoken like a true post Project 2000 'graduate' . Albeit a bit more modest ;-)

    As someone who qualified when you did, apart from knocking my post, a suggestion of the true problems and a solution might be useful .....
  10. They should kick all those overpaid and totally unnecessary 'managers' into touch and bring back the Matrons. They ran hospitals with a rod of iron & ensured they ran like a well oiled machine.
  11. Oohh Matron, I hope you've warmed your rod of iron!
  12. Too many people reading fairy stories about ladies with lamps and 'angels of mercy'.
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  13. So its a lack of compassion that has my wife in tears when a patient dies in her ward ?
    Or a lack of compassion that changes the Dr's mind to not send a dying patient home for her last days as her last wish
    Or a lack of compassion that brings her back to work on a day shift after four nights on ?

    **** you bbc, **** you a lot.
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  14. And your wife is not the only one. I'm in Occ Health and I dont have a day go by without a member of staff in my clinic breaking up as they can't do their job properly due to the current pressures on them. As for the manager knocking even that is not true. They are being culled left right and centre so much so that work they were very effective at is now not getting done, at all. Try speaking to payroll with a query and all you get is a messaging service.
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  15. No, but it's probably reasonably good evidence that "compassion" (actually empathy) is neither a necessary, nor indeed a particularly desireable trait amongst those who would take up a 'caring' profession.