Next Generation Medium Lift

Dear Leonardo - shove your commercial flop where the sun don't shine.
There's a VERY good reason no ones buying it, its Leonardos very expensive Blackhawk 'me too'.

You talk about the wee competition and Leonardo was most unhappy a few years ago with the California Dept of Forestry having selected the Sikorsky S-70i Firehawk over the AW189 for firefighting duties.


cheers
 

PhotEx

On ROPS
On ROPs
You talk about the wee competition and Leonardo was most unhappy a few years ago with the California Dept of Forestry having selected the Sikorsky S-70i Firehawk over the AW189 for firefighting duties.


cheers

has it ever won out against a Blackhawk in a tender?
 
has it ever won out against a Blackhawk in a tender?

Thing is though in spite of AW189 in service with firefighting agencies in Far East (Japan & Malaysia) the Blackhawk is rugged for the California terrain and as such.

@Stovepipe can probably answer this, but over the Irish Sea, the S-70/UH-60 were either offered or looked at by the Defense force and then the AW139M got chosen.

cheers
 
Sikorsky, at one stage, offered the UH-60 to the Army as part of a deal to get the S-92 accepted by our Coast Guard. The Army were very enthusiastic about the prospect of an actual,proper combat helicopter but a row broke out about Sikorsky being percieved to have " salted the mine" by offering the UH-60s instead of industrial offsets and Agusta threatened legal action,as they basically had no equivalent sweetener. Now,the Dept of Defence had not requested industrial offsets (ie,build heli parts here) as part of the deal,for the blindingly obvious reason that Ireland simply didnt or doesnt have the wherewithal to build helis from scratch. All of the contenders knew this but Agusta made a fuss so the DoD backed down and the DF got the AW 139 instead, which is basically a civvy 139 (millionaire's runabout) with a coat of green paint and army seats and a winch and a pivot for a machine gun. It has small wheels so they spend all their time flying around with the gear down and snow shoes fitted, as they will sink into any unhardened surface. After that,any resemblance to a proper combat helicopter is purely accidental. It is alleged that when a senior DoD official was asked by the Army why they refused to get UH-60s, which was what the Army clearly wanted, he said they they were "too warry". The Coasties got the S-92, which is an excellent aircraft.
 
Sikorsky, at one stage, offered the UH-60 to the Army as part of a deal to get the S-92 accepted by our Coast Guard. The Army were very enthusiastic about the prospect of an actual,proper combat helicopter but a row broke out about Sikorsky being percieved to have " salted the mine" by offering the UH-60s instead of industrial offsets and Agusta threatened legal action,as they basically had no equivalent sweetener. Now,the Dept of Defence had not requested industrial offsets (ie,build heli parts here) as part of the deal,for the blindingly obvious reason that Ireland simply didnt or doesnt have the wherewithal to build helis from scratch. All of the contenders knew this but Agusta made a fuss so the DoD backed down and the DF got the AW 139 instead, which is basically a civvy 139 (millionaire's runabout) with a coat of green paint and army seats and a winch and a pivot for a machine gun. It has small wheels so they spend all their time flying around with the gear down and snow shoes fitted, as they will sink into any unhardened surface. After that,any resemblance to a proper combat helicopter is purely accidental. It is alleged that when a senior DoD official was asked by the Army why they refused to get UH-60s, which was what the Army clearly wanted, he said they they were "too warry". The Coasties got the S-92, which is an excellent aircraft.

Just checked the Defence Forces site, 6 x 139s in the fleet. How many uh-60s were Sikorsky going to offer the Army as part of the bigger deal with the S92?
 
Just checked the Defence Forces site, 6 x 139s in the fleet. How many uh-60s were Sikorsky going to offer the Army as part of the bigger deal with the S92?
The amount I heard was 4. Don't get me wrong; the pilots like the 139 a lot but it ain't no Blackhawk. Having experience on the 139 has meant that a lot of the pilots (and techs) have gone on to greater things such as working for Leonardo or flying millionaires around. The versions being offered now have modifications and improvements supposedly based on Ireland's experience with them.
 
The amount I heard was 4. Don't get me wrong; the pilots like the 139 a lot but it ain't no Blackhawk. Having experience on the 139 has meant that a lot of the pilots (and techs) have gone on to greater things such as working for Leonardo or flying millionaires around. The versions being offered now have modifications and improvements supposedly based on Ireland's experience with them.

the Blackhawk was up against the AW139 in the same competition was for 4 plus option of 2 aircraft AFAIK

the AC were the military launch customer of the 139 so the validation of door guns, fast roping points etc was first done on these aircraft
 
Sikorsky, at one stage, offered the UH-60 to the Army as part of a deal to get the S-92 accepted by our Coast Guard. The Army were very enthusiastic about the prospect of an actual,proper combat helicopter but a row broke out about Sikorsky being percieved to have " salted the mine" by offering the UH-60s instead of industrial offsets and Agusta threatened legal action,as they basically had no equivalent sweetener. Now,the Dept of Defence had not requested industrial offsets (ie,build heli parts here) as part of the deal,for the blindingly obvious reason that Ireland simply didnt or doesnt have the wherewithal to build helis from scratch. All of the contenders knew this but Agusta made a fuss so the DoD backed down and the DF got the AW 139 instead, which is basically a civvy 139 (millionaire's runabout) with a coat of green paint and army seats and a winch and a pivot for a machine gun. It has small wheels so they spend all their time flying around with the gear down and snow shoes fitted, as they will sink into any unhardened surface. After that,any resemblance to a proper combat helicopter is purely accidental. It is alleged that when a senior DoD official was asked by the Army why they refused to get UH-60s, which was what the Army clearly wanted, he said they they were "too warry". The Coasties got the S-92, which is an excellent aircraft.

think you mixing that up with the AC medium lift tender which was awarded to the S92 (we would have been the launch customer), there offsets (which weren’t requested (offsets can be completely unrelated - the story goes when we bought the Steyr, the Austrian got a lot of Irish butter)) as part of that which would have secured maintenance jobs in Dublin Airport. Eurocopter (Cougar) got wind and went to court and the whole tender was dropped.

the Blackhawk was in the competition against the 139 (and alledgedly lost out due to cost)

The Coastguard don’t own (or operate) “their” S92s, they are provided by CHC
 
Sikorsky, at one stage, offered the UH-60 to the Army as part of a deal to get the S-92 accepted by our Coast Guard. The Army were very enthusiastic about the prospect of an actual,proper combat helicopter but a row broke out about Sikorsky being percieved to have " salted the mine" by offering the UH-60s instead of industrial offsets and Agusta threatened legal action,as they basically had no equivalent sweetener. Now,the Dept of Defence had not requested industrial offsets (ie,build heli parts here) as part of the deal,for the blindingly obvious reason that Ireland simply didnt or doesnt have the wherewithal to build helis from scratch. All of the contenders knew this but Agusta made a fuss so the DoD backed down and the DF got the AW 139 instead, which is basically a civvy 139 (millionaire's runabout) with a coat of green paint and army seats and a winch and a pivot for a machine gun. It has small wheels so they spend all their time flying around with the gear down and snow shoes fitted, as they will sink into any unhardened surface. After that,any resemblance to a proper combat helicopter is purely accidental. It is alleged that when a senior DoD official was asked by the Army why they refused to get UH-60s, which was what the Army clearly wanted, he said they they were "too warry". The Coasties got the S-92, which is an excellent aircraft.

Very informative and I was told it was then Eurocopter which threatened to sue over the SAR thing, as they rather have Super Puma in the offering.

Cheers
 
Theres always been talk like this for near 4 deacdes, of should we follow most armed forces within NATO, such as army has battelfield support helos and thats that, leaving the RAF with SAR and (wishful thinking) CSAR.

But like everything else, is mooted with inter service rivalry and the RAF being the be all and end all. Suppose thats why JHC was created in late 90s. I also believe the army foots the bill for the RAF Chinook support at times..

Mind you the Dutch air force are sole owners and keepers of battlefield and naval helos, likewise with the Danes (they kept swapping and changing with Danish Air Force, has this, then the Army has this and Navy and now its under air force control).

cheers
The Israeli Air Force seems to operate anything that flies and it seems to have worked for them in all their wars.
 
Mind you the Dutch air force are sole owners and keepers of battlefield and naval helos, likewise with the Danes (they kept swapping and changing with Danish Air Force, has this, then the Army has this and Navy and now its under air force control).

cheers
The Israeli Air Force, RNoAF, RDAF, Swedish Air Force, RCAF & RNZAF also do a fairly sterling job of SH, ASW & ASUW.
 
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Very informative and I was told it was then Eurocopter which threatened to sue over the SAR thing, as they rather have Super Puma in the offering.

Cheers

it’s actually 3 different competitions @Stovepipe

1 - the medium lift AC contract - S92 won. Offsets offered. Court case by Eurocopter (can’t remember if Blackhawk was in the mix for this)

2 - the utility lift AC contract - 139 won. Blackhawk was definitely in the mix

3 - the Dept of Transport SAR contract - awarded to CHC (with S92) never heard of Blackhawk being mentioned
 

PhotEx

On ROPS
On ROPs
The amount I heard was 4. Don't get me wrong; the pilots like the 139 a lot but it ain't no Blackhawk. Having experience on the 139 has meant that a lot of the pilots (and techs) have gone on to greater things such as working for Leonardo or flying millionaires around. The versions being offered now have modifications and improvements supposedly based on Ireland's experience with them.

cynical AAC Captain ‘Leonardo make very good VIP helicopters’
 
The Israeli Air Force, RNoAF, Swedish Air Force, RCAF & RNZAF also do a fairly sterling job of SH, ASW & ASUW.
Wasn't it Herman Goring who said "if it flies, its mine." Even the Arado float planes on battleships and cruisers of the Kriegsmarine were owned by the Luftwaffe and flown by their pilots.
 
it’s actually 3 different competitions @Stovepipe

1 - the medium lift AC contract - S92 won. Offsets offered. Court case by Eurocopter (can’t remember if Blackhawk was in the mix for this)

2 - the utility lift AC contract - 139 won. Blackhawk was definitely in the mix

3 - the Dept of Transport SAR contract - awarded to CHC (with S92) never heard of Blackhawk being mentioned
You're probably right about me mixing the stories up but the part about unwanted offsets is true. The 139 was in the running for the SAR contract but was regarded as too small by some of the interested personnel. It has been said that it's not a good platform for hovering with a winch op and survivor on the wire. How true that is, I don't know. Apart from all that, the prospect of someone assembling helis at DUB/keep lads in jobs,etc,etc as offsets was wide of the mark and everyone knew it and it was regarded as bullshit. But,it was used as a weapon to beat against Sikorsky. With regard to the S-92 getting a start as a medium lift heli, it was even put out that the Army didnt want it , as it was claimed that the ramp was considered to be too close to the tail rotor/unsafe/lads might get hurt. This was rubbish,of course, but you know how rumours and tales go around.
 
You're probably right about me mixing the stories up but the part about unwanted offsets is true. The 139 was in the running for the SAR contract but was regarded as too small by some of the interested personnel. It has been said that it's not a good platform for hovering with a winch op and survivor on the wire. How true that is, I don't know. Apart from all that, the prospect of someone assembling helis at DUB/keep lads in jobs,etc,etc as offsets was wide of the mark and everyone knew it and it was regarded as bullshit. But,it was used as a weapon to beat against Sikorsky. With regard to the S-92 getting a start as a medium lift heli, it was even put out that the Army didnt want it , as it was claimed that the ramp was considered to be too close to the tail rotor/unsafe/lads might get hurt. This was rubbish,of course, but you know how rumours and tales go around.
A shame that the Army had a golden opportunity to upgrade their capabilities but a combination of civil serpents and threats/rumours meant they're left with an inferior solution.
 
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You're probably right about me mixing the stories up but the part about unwanted offsets is true. The 139 was in the running for the SAR contract but was regarded as too small by some of the interested personnel. It has been said that it's not a good platform for hovering with a winch op and survivor on the wire. How true that is, I don't know. Apart from all that, the prospect of someone assembling helis at DUB/keep lads in jobs,etc,etc as offsets was wide of the mark and everyone knew it and it was regarded as bullshit. But,it was used as a weapon to beat against Sikorsky. With regard to the S-92 getting a start as a medium lift heli, it was even put out that the Army didnt want it , as it was claimed that the ramp was considered to be too close to the tail rotor/unsafe/lads might get hurt. This was rubbish,of course, but you know how rumours and tales go around.

the selection of helicopter type was completely up to the contractor so long as it met the prescribed specs (can’t find it now but I think it was fly out to x miles, pick up y survivors and return). That could well have put 139 out.

it was nothing to do with assembling helis in Dublin on the AC S92 contract (the last 3 competitors were the S92, Cougar and Merlin). Cougar was recommended and S92 was selected. Both actually offered offsets to FLS Aerospace in Dublin.
This is a good link:
 

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