News story: Novichok nerve agent use in Salisbury: UK government response

(1) Mentioned previously, you didn't deny any facts, just the assumptions.

(2) I know English isn't your first language but one of you has been on here for nearly as long as I have. (3) If the UK govt have information held at a level above 'open source' they can of course come to a conclusion based on that evidence.


(4) The hysteria, denial and obfuscation is entirely from Russia.


(5) Of course you believe the Russian version. It's what is in your terms of reference.
1) How it is possible to deny assumptions? I don't understand. It is possible to make comments that assumptions are not based on facts. It is a matter of opinion. I have right for my personal opinion, have I?
2) It would be very kind of you to correct my mistakes.
3) I understand your point. HMG could have (for example) information from a secret agent in Moscow (who is too valuable to disclose his identity) and he could inform HMG about some delicate details of the story. I agree, it is possible.
4) Again, it is a matter of opinion. For my taste, it is just political hysterical show in London.
5) I repeated it you many times. I don't believe anybody, any government, especially Russian government. I have own head and brains and am able to analyse facts, regard allegations and make conclusions.
 
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1) How it is possible to deny assumptions? I don't understand. It is possible to make comments that assumptions are not based on facts. It is a matter of opinion. I have right for my personal opinion, have I?
Assumptions are based on evidence and facts. Some are more probable than others.
2) It would be very kind of you to correct my mistakes.
On what? If it's appropriate I will.
3) I understand your point. HMG could have (for example) information from a secret agent in Moscow (who is too valuable to disclose his identity) and he could inform HMG about some delicate details of the story. I agree, it is possible.
Not just agents. Probable, not possible.
4) Again, it is a matter of opinion. For my taste, it is just political hysterical show in London.
Facts have been stated. Russia has gone into 'victim hysteria', denial and obfuscation mode.

Cut out the rubbish and bluff. OPCW to have unfettered access into mounting inspections at where the UK say these sites are. The bluff is called. Either Russia is right and doesn't have such sites or the UK is right and Russia does have such sites.
5) I repeated you many times. I don't believe anybody, any government, especially Russian government. I have own head and brains and am able to analyse facts, regard allegations and make conclusions.
If only you did something which was against the Kremlin line.
 
Many in the latter part of the 20th century believed that with collapse of the communist Soviet Union and its vassal states, we might, at last, be able to do business with the Russians.

Unfortunately, communism was never at the heart of the Russian problem. The Soviet state had much in common with the autocratic Tsarist monarchical system that it replaced, even down to a very similar highly-organised secret police network.

Russia, with its vast eastern and far eastern hinterland, will never happily coexist with Europe or the West. Their mindset is too Asiatic. The Russian people have become accustomed to autocratic leaders. For the most part, it is very much how they prefer things. The Russian people have an ingrained suspicion of anyone or anything non-Russian. This inherent suspicion extends to those of their own who do not conform, either through political belief or because of the racial and cultural disparity of the numerous peoples who populate this vast land empire.

Some of the suspicion of outsiders can fairly be attributed to the experience of the country during WW2 and even Napoleonic times. But other countries suffered during these and other conflicts (for example, Poland lost a much greater proportion of its population during WW2) and they have come out the other side. Much of the barbarity experienced by Russians, at various times in its history, was suffered at the hands of their own Tsars, leaders and people.

Historically, Russia has had done more than its own fair share of empire building. Even after the era of the Soviet Bloc, the majority of what remains as the colossal land area of the Russian Federation is the legacy of wholesale imperial expansionism and the subjugation of other peoples.

They will continue to play the victim, though. It is in their history and their genes.
 

Higgs_bosun

On ROPS
On ROPs
Guilty until proved innocent...the blended paranoia of BoJo clones and extreme geriatrics. Frankly, one needs to realise that if this 'spent force' of a old spy was bumped off by the Russians then they have done the tax payer a favour.
 
Either Russia is right and doesn't have such sites or the UK is right and Russia does have such sites.
Let's recall that
Chemical Weapons Convention - Wikipedia
Schedule 1 chemicals have few, or no uses outside chemical weapons. These may be produced or used for research, medical, pharmaceutical or chemical weapon defence testing purposes but production at sites producing more than 100 grams per year must be declared to the OPCW. A country is limited to possessing a maximum of 1 tonne of these materials. Examples are sulfur mustard and nerve agents
So any country (including Russia, the USA, the UK) has right to produce 100g of any NA per year without any notification and store up to 1 tonne of any NA.
Even if Russia is now producing small amounts of the chemicals that were used for poisoning then it proves nothing. Other countries could produce absolutely the same chemicals as well.
Btw, specialist from Porton Down established the type of the poison. So they are well aware about its formula and had to have small amout as an etalon. It mean that they previously manufactured Novichok themselves.
This NA is not something absolutely unique, something that only one country is able to produce. Many privately owned chemical laboratories are quite able to produce the poison.
 
...
- The Skripals are not available to be seen by Russian consular officers, by journalists, by independent medics (from the Red Cross for example). But why? It looks that London has something to hide. They could be not be in 'coma', in 'critical condition' but could say something that contradicts to 'Russian' version...
Absolute nonsense, I'm afraid. But the Court of Protection has now published its decision on the UK Government's application for the OPCW inspectors (a) to collect blood samples from the Skrupals, (b) to analyse their records and (c) to re-test the earlier samples held by Defence Science and Technology Laboratory at Porton Down.

The decision is available online HERE. Some quick points:
  • The UK Government had no power to make these things happen without a court order. According to the published decision "Because Mr Skripal and Ms Skripal are unconscious and neither are in a position to consent to the taking of further blood samples for these purposes or to the disclosure of their medical records Salisbury NHS Foundation Trust have quite properly confirmed to the UK Government that a court order would be required to authorise (a) and (b) above."
  • The taking of further blood samples from the two patients means that although in a coma they will actually be seen by the OPCW inspectors. (They need to take samples directly from the patients so as to be able to verify from DNA that the previous samples now held by DSTL are from the same individuals.)
  • The issue rested on what was in the best interests of the two patients, and the minimising of detriment to them. (Para 14 of the decision)
  • The question of consular access was referred to - although not an issue for decision in that application - at para 12. Note that the provision in the Vienna Convention about consular access has not been imported into domestic law, so that issue is one between governments and there is no provision to force the hospital to allow consular access without the Skripals or their legitimate representative requesting access.
  • The Court decided there was no obligation to notify the Russian Embassy: "...The nature and extent of any good practice which might be followed in Court of Protection cases where a foreign national is the subject of an application may require consideration in another case. In practice, the Russian consular authorities will be made aware of these proceedings because this judgment will be published."
 
Guilty until proved innocent...the blended paranoia of BoJo clones and extreme geriatrics. Frankly, one needs to realise that if this 'spent force' of a old spy was bumped off by the Russians then they have done the tax payer a favour.
So you're happy with the first use of Nerve Agent on UK soil by a foreign power?
 
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Let's recall that
Chemical Weapons Convention - Wikipedia

So any country (including Russia, the USA, the UK) has right to produce 100g of any NA per year without any notification and store up to 1 tonne of any NA.
Yep, note testing. I don't believe that covers assassination even in the broadest sense, let alone on another country's soil.
Even if Russia is now producing small amounts of the chemicals that were used for poisoning then it proves nothing. Other countries could produce absolutely the same chemicals as well.
For testing, not assassination.
Btw, specialist from Porton Down established the type of the poison. So they are well aware about its formula and had to have small amout as an etalon. It mean that they previously manufactured Novichok themselves.
Really? You're a chemist now?
This NA is not something absolutely unique, something that only one country is able to produce. Many privately owned chemical laboratories are quite able to produce the poison.
We know what Novichok is and who produced it.
 
Yes. There is that version. Russia started it and some useful idiots and conspiraloons ran with it.

Just because a 'version' exists, it doesn't make it true, does it, liar?
Why should it need a counter argument? Why dignify a tissue of lies with a rebuttal?

Remember the versions with the supersonic Frogfoot, Ukrainian BUK, and the rest of the shite you were eagerly shovelling out?
Lies. All lies.
Russia is a lost cause.
Nothing is true, everything is 'versions', nothing is ever Russia's fault, Russia is being persecuted, yadda, yadda.
I'm beginning to think that Russia has been taken over by scousers, everyone is against us, we are entitled to it because, cleptomaniacs, there may be other key indicators that I can't think of at the moment.
 
.......
Absolute nonsense, I'm afraid. But the Court of Protection has now published its decision on the UK Government's application for the OPCW inspectors (a) to collect blood samples from the Skrupals, (b) to analyse their records and (c) to re-test the earlier samples held by Defence Science and Technology Laboratory at Porton Down.

The decision is available online HERE. Some quick points:
  • The UK Government had no power to make these things happen without a court order. According to the published decision "Because Mr Skripal and Ms Skripal are unconscious and neither are in a position to consent to the taking of further blood samples for these purposes or to the disclosure of their medical records Salisbury NHS Foundation Trust have quite properly confirmed to the UK Government that a court order would be required to authorise (a) and (b) above."
  • The taking of further blood samples from the two patients means that although in a coma they will actually be seen by the OPCW inspectors. (They need to take samples directly from the patients so as to be able to verify from DNA that the previous samples now held by DSTL are from the same individuals.)
  • The issue rested on what was in the best interests of the two patients, and the minimising of detriment to them. (Para 14 of the decision)
  • The question of consular access was referred to - although not an issue for decision in that application - at para 12. Note that the provision in the Vienna Convention about consular access has not been imported into domestic law, so that issue is one between governments and there is no provision to force the hospital to allow consular access without the Skripals or their legitimate representative requesting access.
  • The Court decided there was no obligation to notify the Russian Embassy: "...The nature and extent of any good practice which might be followed in Court of Protection cases where a foreign national is the subject of an application may require consideration in another case. In practice, the Russian consular authorities will be made aware of these proceedings because this judgment will be published."
Thank you very much for information. So according to the document that you have quoted
i)CC: Porton Down Chemical and Biological Analyst

Blood samples from Sergei Skripal and Yulia Skripal were analysed and the findings indicated exposure to a nerve agent or related compound. The samples tested positive for the presence of a Novichok class nerve agent or closely related agent.
So the Porton Down Analyst is not sure is it Novichok or closely related agent.
Maybe it is not exactly Novichok but something similar.
 
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Maybe you are aware that now we are watching years long geopolitical conflict between Moscow and Washington. As for this case then...
Instigator - Washington in coordination with London.
Motive - To prevent lifting of anti-Russian sanctions by European allies, to organise pressure on Moscow, to blacken image of Russia.
I wasn't asking you, you sh*t posting Putin bot.
 
So the Porton Down Analyst is it Novichok or closely related agent.

Maybe it is not exactly Novichok but something similar.
I mentioned it yesterday and I'm surprised you never picked it up then. Whilst I know you want to set hares running, I think awaiting the OPCW report is the better COA.
 
.......

Thank you very much for information. So according to the document that you have quoted

So the Porton Down Analyst is it Novichok or closely related agent.
Maybe it is not exactly Novichok but something similar.
The judge also used the phrase "nerve agent or related compound", but in layman's terms it's a nerve agent. Good try at trying to exploit the judge's terse summary of a witness's evidence :
  • "Blood samples from Sergei Skripal and Yulia Skripal were analysed and the findings indicated exposure to a nerve agent or related compound. The samples tested positive for the presence of a Novichok class nerve agent or closely related agent." [my bold]
 
I mentioned it yesterday and I'm surprised you never picked it up then. Whilst I know you want to set hares running, I think awaiting the OPCW report is the better COA.
So do you agree that claims made by mrs.May and members of HMG are premature and we should wait for the end of the investigation and results of test conducted by OPCW experts?
 
So do you agree that claims made by mrs.May and members of HMG are premature and we should wait for the end of the investigation and results of test conducted by OPCW experts?
Stop being silly. The UK govt are going on the information provided to them by Porton Down. When combined with the information from the SIA they have made their decision.

OPCW will say if it is Novichok or whatever else it may be. Last I heard Russia refused to accept OPCWs report in any case, much like they're unhappy with OPCW investigations on Syrian attacks.
 
"Clearly, the presence of several Russian passport holders in and around Salisbury, and the events occurring there recently when innocent citizens of the Sov . . . errrmm, Russian state were brutalised by evil US imperialist agents, move the glorious leader to assist the victimised Russian enclave of Salisbury with their Unilateral Declaration of Independence as quickly as possible, as a genuine defensive measure. Polite green men may make an appearance very soon and the liberation situation will be formalised with an independence referendum after all invading imperialist British dupes are removed from the area."

This was next week's news from Moscow . . .
 
The judge also used the phrase "nerve agent or related compound", but in layman's terms it's a nerve agent. Good try at trying to exploit the judge's terse summary of a witness's evidence :
  • "Blood samples from Sergei Skripal and Yulia Skripal were analysed and the findings indicated exposure to a nerve agent or related compound. The samples tested positive for the presence of a Novichok class nerve agent or closely related agent." [my bold]
But the judge is not an expert. His judgement, wording are based on his understanding of expert's opinion and are secondary. Wording of the expert is most accurate and primary. So namely it should be taken into account.
 
(above) " .. when the leaders had lost their moral compass .. "

Putin never had one and has demonstrated this in numerous ways, not least with the murder of Litvinenko.

Please don't treat the Salisbury incident as some sort of aberration. It is normal jogging for Putin's Russia.

Why not Polonium this time? I think Putin & co may have a been a bit surprised that it was diagnosed. After all what had done for that guy on Westminster Bridge (ricin) went undiscovered for years. Plus I suspect he WANTS it known that he has Novichok at his command and wants some individuals (or even NATO) to be very afraid. It may also be that he wants these victims not actually dead but as continuing warning to others.
Also the billions which will be spent on protective equipment and training by the West as CRBN is back on the table so to speak.
 

Higgs_bosun

On ROPS
On ROPs
Just listening to Trump and his insane spending plans... as in Europe May is drumming up hatred against Russia on the back of a fanstasy. There is something going on and it's very wrong... Either the Russians are utterly stupid or they are not. I really hope that they are stupid.
 

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