News story: Novichok nerve agent use in Salisbury: UK government response

Okay, I'll play. Let's make a couple of assumptions (A) and some Facts (F):
F1. Russia is having an election today. (Obvious)
F2. The new Czar wants to be the longest serving leader since Stalin (Obvious, he's on the ballot)
F3. Putin wants a 70% turnout and 70% of those to vote for him (according to Russian state tv)
F4. Russia under the new Czar wants to regain its 'superpower' rather than a 'regional power' status (based on Putin's speeches and actions)
F5. Putin's govt is run by crooks and thieves (according to you). It's basically a mafia state.
F6. Any opposition is ruthlessly suppressed be it Nemtsov or Navalny.
F7. The Soviets invented Novichok.
F8. The 'Russia strong' message is peddled by the trolls and 'useful idiots'
F9. The West is seen as decadent.
F10. The UK is the home to many Oligarchs and to former Russians who fled Vlad.
F11. Putin has threatened to dispose of the 'traitors'
F12. Russia has massive agitprop campaigns. There are many 'useful idiots'.
F13. Russia has used numerous vetoes at the UNSC to support Assad and his use of CW (and now Iran).
F14. Four years ago, Crimea was invaded and annexed.

A1. It's all about the US (according to agitprop and your posts)
A2. The UK is the 'chief poodle' or 'client state' as Russia see's it. (obvious, emphasised by you)
A3. The UK remains a thorn in Russia's side. Not so much on conventional military might, but the SIA (particularly GCHQ) and of course it has nukes as well. Plus one of the P5.
A4. Russian meddling according to the US Int agencies in their elections, so doing anything in the US for now is verboten. (ongoing investigation)
A5. Vlad wants to send a message to get more of a turnout at the election.
A6. Vlad wants to be seen as the only person who can 'save' Russia from their (the West's) meddling (freedoms) and their views (freedom of expression, gay rights etc.)
A7. 'Colour Revolutions' frighten the pants off Putin. (having seen the collapse of the CCCP)
A8. Russia wants to send a message (emphasise) to their populace, that the West is out to get them.
A9. Instead of the US, the 'chief poodle' will do for any 'lesson' to be made..
A10. Vlad wants less people prepared to betray the Russia he wants to be in charge of.
A11. If a lesson is to be made, it needs to be pinned down to Russia but can be conveniently denied, obfuscated and 'whataboutery'ed' (nod and a wink, but denied)
A12. Russia doesn't care about collateral damage be it Russian citizens or bystanders (Ukraine and Syria)

All of the above neither contradict anything nor any of the assumptions, let alone the facts. Possibly A8 & 9 assumptions can be queried. Bearing in mind facts 1 to 5 and 8 to 10, it's still a strong possibility. A11, high probability.

Anything to add?
On many points I agree, on some ones I have slightly or absolutely different opinion.
You apparently believe that Moscow ordered the poisoning. But as Russian government denies any involvement then why do you think VX nerve agent was not chosen?
 
Putin's lackies have released a statement thanking Britain for the Skripal incident as they say it boosted Putins share of the vote.

While its been fairly obvious from the start that the whole reason the Russians used NA was so that Putin could look strong and defiant, I feel that he still neednt come out of this as well as he expected. It just needs a bit of thought and co operation from out allies now.
 
On many points I agree, on some ones I have slightly or absolutely different opinion.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Some are more worthy than others.
You apparently believe that Moscow ordered the poisoning. But as Russian government denies any involvement
‘Highly likely’ and Russian govt denials are not new.
then why do you think VX nerve agent was not chosen?
To send the message. You know, I know. The ‘nod and wink’ we did it, but we’ll deny it, but we did it (nod and wink).
 
Which facts are you disputing? An election today? Vetoing UNSC Resolutions? Novichok designed in the USSR?

You think they were pissed and not poisoned by a nerve agent?

Diplomatic outrages happen all of the time. It’s what happens next and what happens when all of the facts of the poisoning are known.
I am not disputing any facts at all but at the moment they are being used as non sequiturs.
The vodka analogy did not suggest that anything but nerve agent used in the Salisbury poisoning.
The diplomatic outrage took-off without proper evidence.
 
I am not disputing any facts at all but at the moment they are being used as non sequiturs.
The vodka analogy did not suggest that anything but nerve agent used in the Salisbury poisoning.
The diplomatic outrage took-off without proper evidence.
Proper evidence that you are aware of but currently the UK, the US, France and Germany all agree with
 
To send the message. You know, I know. The ‘nod and wink’ we did it, but we’ll deny it, but we did it (nod and wink).
It is a strange message anyway. The West would not be impressed. Opinions of ordinary Russians are irrelevant for Kremlin.
It would be a very risky operation. Assasins could be captured and Russia would look weak.
Btw, how the poisoning was done technically? What do you think?
 
It is a strange message anyway. The West would not be impressed. Opinions of ordinary Russians are irrelevant for Kremlin.
We know. Albeit the babushka’s freezing in their hovels still love him. It’s not his fault, it’s local govt :rolleyes:
It would be a very risky operation. Assasins could be captured and Russia would look weak.
Who has said assassins came to the UK? If I were a Russian assassin, I’d be looking over my shoulder at a ‘convenient accident’ from my own side.
Btw, how the poisoning was done technically? What do you think?
Currently, based on open source, the latest one is the car. Previously thought to be in the House. It’s an ongoing investigation and speculation has many counter points.
 
Btw, how the poisoning was done technically? What do you think?
Poisoning sounds almost acceptable. We are led to believe it was a nerve agent. It is not like rat poison used to off your aunty. It's a bit like , oh administering a nuclear isotope to inculcate fear on a level far more severe than a mere poisoning.

It is a weapon that is considered ethically unacceptable by all normal states.

Anyway, we have got that out of the way.

I have a fair idea how it was done technically. Maybe you would like to elaborate though. Feel free to use whatabouterry and could have, might have etc in your answer. Let us assume that the agent was in a liquid or solid phase. Forget binary formulation for the moment. Also.let us assume that it was on the person of the man's daughter or in her luggage. We can go from there.
 
Currently, based on open source, the latest one is the car. Previously thought to be in the House. It’s an ongoing investigation and speculation has many counter points.
So, as I understand there is no any logical version of events that at least doesn't contradict to known facts.
Car? OK, but who had planted the poison and how it was made. And why policeman who visited Skripal's home was poisoned?
Why mr.Skripal did not get faint in the car or just after driving?
 
He came back in Churchillian tones about: "democratic freedom of speech, freedom of belief, the right to do what we want, the democratic right to freely gather, meet with sympathetic comrades and freely express our opinions, etc. When I made him aware that many (if not most) of those rights we were supposed to defend were actually not available to us as British Army squaddies, he began huffing and hawing and took a swift exit stage left. Not very convincing, in my opinion.

MsG
Round spherical objects, Bugs. He'd have said "We're here to defend democracy, not practise it".
 
So, as I understand there is no any logical version of events that at least doesn't contradict to known facts.
Car? OK, but who had planted the poison and how it was made. And why policeman who visited Skripal's home was poisoned?
Why mr.Skripal did not get faint in the car or just after driving?
As I said, it’s an ongoing investigation and speculation (wild or otherwise) does nothing but set hares running. Clearly, that’s an objective which will be fed upon by the ‘useful idiots’.

Until the facts are known, how the agent affected the three persons is simply speculation and our media (and yours), is rife with it.
 
So, as I understand there is no any logical version of events that at least doesn't contradict to known facts.
Car? OK, but who had planted the poison and how it was made. And why policeman who visited Skripal's home was poisoned?
Why mr.Skripal did not get faint in the car or just after driving?
Because almost everyone who publicly says “It was done in the _____ with the _____ by ______” is speculating from the latest thing to get fenced off, covered by a tent or taken away

It’s not been formally stated that the Russians did it, only that the type of nerve agent is linked to Russia and in the first instance requested Putin to respond

There is a lot of speculation about it was here, it was there, the police officer was affected here or there and whether he was doing something unusual or follow up investigation

There may have been varying levels of contact with the agent and it may have been present and carried in various places

The answers are not yet publicly available and the investigation is not complete
 
You're talking to a bloke who claims there's no evidence Jews were gassed, I think that's all you need to know really.
That’s gen? I’m not doubting you and I know he has a rep but really? Beggars belief tbh
 
That’s gen? I’m not doubting you and I know he has a rep but really? Beggars belief tbh
Yes. Sadly it is true. A longish and quite interesting thread filled with the usual obfuscation by the usual suspects. I fondly remember Jack Prior and others providing logical disproofs. Not that the usual suspects noticed.
 
Yes. Sadly it is true. A longish and quite interesting thread filled with the usual obfuscation by the usual suspects. I fondly remember Jack Prior and others providing logical disproofs. Not that the usual suspects noticed.
Seen, thanks. Just read the last few pages but it’s enough. Must admit, if I’m ever in agreement with @184461 I would step back and have a serious word with myself.
 
Putin wins another six years at Russia's helm in landslide victory
Putin talking about ‘unity’:
“It’s very important to maintain this unity. We will think about the future of our great Motherland,” said Putin, before leading the crowd in repeated chants of “Russia!” He told a meeting of supporters afterwards that difficult times were ahead, but that Russia had a chance to make “a breakthrough.”
Assertions we and the US interfered in the election:
“I think that in the United States and Britain they’ve understood they cannot influence our elections,” Igor Morozov, a member of the upper house of parliament, said on state television.

Valentina Matviyenko, speaker of the upper house, hailed the victory as a moral one over the West.

“Our elections have proved once again ... that it’s not possible to manipulate our people,” she said. “People came together. No other country in the world has such open and transparent elections.”
No ‘succession mgt’ in place:
“The longer he stays in power, the harder it will be to exit,” said Andrei Kolesnikov, senior fellow at the Carnegie Moscow Center, a think tank. “How can he abandon such a complicated system, which is essentially his personal project?”
 
Proper evidence that you are aware of but currently the UK, the US, France and Germany all agree with
There is no proper evidence that would stand up in a court of law... That other countries dance to the same tune is nothing more than political guff... possibly by design. I am open minded and look forward to seeing some objective reasoning. At the moment is looks more like a culture of irrational hatred...the perfect target for subversion.
 

Latest Threads

Top