News story: Novichok nerve agent use in Salisbury: UK government response

What big questions?

There has been attempted multiple murder in the UK with a Russian nerve agent
Either the Russians did it or they let somebody else obtain their nerve agent.


.
Go back to #283 and continue reading down.
In your own time go on.
Read everything, digest it then inform everyone as to your opinion.
Nobody is going near it as it blows the official HMG line to pieces.
Many have tried come-backs but just ended up deflecting and distracting.
No points for non-inquisitive minds especially with something as potentially serious as this whole scenario.
The only people not answering the ‘big questions’ as you put it are you Russians.
I never met aRussian who wasn’t a Cnut and you’re providing plenty of confirmation Comrade.
 

184461

On ROPS
On ROPs
The only people not answering the ‘big questions’ as you put it are you Russians.
I never met aRussian who wasn’t a Cnut and you’re providing plenty of confirmation Comrade.
That's because there's a massive probability that the Russians had nothing to do with any of this.
Have you really learned nothing at all since #283?
 
Go back to #283 and continue reading down.
In your own time go on.
Read everything, digest it then inform everyone as to your opinion.
Nobody is going near it as it blows the official HMG line to pieces.
Many have tried come-backs but just ended up deflecting and distracting.
No points for non-inquisitive minds especially with something as potentially serious as this whole scenario.
Have a read. From ‘94 talking about Novichok: https://fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/cbw/jptac008_l94001.htm

Your point in #283 is that the bloke who helped develop it was tried for treason and ran to the US and you’d never heard of Novichok?
 
Break with your programing and offer a 3rd choice of the Russians being stitched up.

From the last bastion of journalism- The Mirror.
I am generally careful with my words. I have merely pointed out known facts . I also feel that perhaps you have misinterpreted the nature of the Mirror's arguments. They are trying to be fair and have presented count and counterpoint which I respect.

I have no need to break with the programming as I do not recall saying the Russians did it although I will say that it is highly likely.

With respect, you are approaching this from the standpoint of someone who has already made their decision and is fitting facts to hypotheses rather than going off evidence. Whilst you have already been told by others that a criminal investigation does not release evidence ( at least until the point of charging), you persist in acting the rabble rouser. There are a number of people here who have spent too long dealing with flim flam artists to be taken in by you.

A while back now, you decided that the Manchester pop concert bombing was :
1]False Flag
2] Did not happen.

Presumably you still believe this. I do recall pointing out to you at the time that the daughter of a friend of mine was seriously ill with injuries described as catastrophic. I thought you might like to know that her leg is still pinned and she has daily attention at home and elsewhere from a number of medical professionals.

I said I was careful with my words. The reason is that words have effects. You should consider this. Why not wait until the samples are independently checked and then carry on with your hypotheses. Apply the same standard of tolerance to our services as you do to the freaks and thugs of the world.
 
That's because there's a massive probability that the Russians had nothing to do with any of this.
Have you really learned nothing at all since #283?
Please let us all know who's truly responsible, as I am sure the MoD, HMG, the French, the Germans, the US and the UNSC would be truly grateful to be shown the error of their ways...
 
Go back to #283 and continue reading down.
In your own time go on.
Read everything, digest it then inform everyone as to your opinion.
Nobody is going near it as it blows the official HMG line to pieces.
Many have tried come-backs but just ended up deflecting and distracting.
No points for non-inquisitive minds especially with something as potentially serious as this whole scenario.

I read it, but I don't see any big questions.

Merely speculation that somebody else could produce Novichok. It isn't exactly earth shattering and it certainly doesn't cast any doubt on the likelyhood of the Russians being guilty of using a nerve agent on British soil.
 

TheIronDuke

ADC
Book Reviewer
Go back to #283 and continue reading down.
In your own time go on.
OK. Done that.

That's how it looks but it also looks as though other countries also had the formula.
The USA must have the formula since they had the guy who formulated it and had paid him Judas gold.

So, the USA (CIA Ninja wet-ops Div) decide to deploy a 50 year old Russian NA to murder a man and his daughter and a copper in a sleepy southern England town in order to fulfill their mission to......

er.... erm.... I am struggling here. Can you help?
 

smeg-head

ADC
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Figment of my imagination? Could be, but it's also a question of following the time-line. It's also helpful to recall the narrative of the "PNAC" (Project for a New American Century) cooked up by a bunch of imperialist Septic reactionaries in the 1990s, who genuinely thought the world was theirs for the taking, and in which the successive "conquest" of Iraq, Iran, Syria and Lebanon was a stated objective (with another few countries thrown in for good measure).

The Septics have been quietly fuming about Putin ever since he first deftly out-manoeuvred them in Georgia. Their man on the spot, that there Shashlik-Willie (or however you spell it) was confident that the Septics would back him up if he did a bit of invading. Unfortunately, they bottled it and he was left on his own when Putin (seeing the writing on the wall) swiftly stepped in and ended the charade in a couple of days.

Next up in the Septic long-term plan to completely surround and thus neutralise Russia was Ukraine, where the Septics, by their own admission, spent something like five billion dollaz destabilising the country. They then kicked off a coup to oust the legally elected president of the country, in the hope that they could take over Crimea too and deny the Russian navy their on deep-sea port. Canny Putin was already a couple of moves ahead of them, though, and skillfully organised a referendum in Crimea to bring the place under Russian control.

After the Septics had spent well over a year shifting huge piles of sand from place to place with their pointless bombing in Syria and Iraq, Putin entered the fray (at the express request of the elected leader of Syria, by the way) and within a couple of months had dealt ISIS a reeling blow from which it was unable to recover. The hist is restory - or something like that.

Putin has acutely embarrassed the Septics every step of the way. He's shown them up time and again for the stumbling, clumsy, incompetent amateurs they are. There's no way that the "leaders of the free world" can be exposed as the self-centred, corrupt imperialists they really are, but at the same time they desperately wanted revenge for being made to look like total ghunts in the eyes of rest of the world. Lacking the wherewithall to be able to do anything themselves (apart from incessant propaganda), they got in touch with all the lap-dog nations they own and ordered them to use anything at their disposal to discredit Putin (and Russia) in any way they could. Treesa Maybe, being the shockingly shameful, ineffective "leader" she is, obliged them, shouting: "The Russians did it" a scarce ten minutes after your man the Ivan there and his daughter were found poisoned.

Don't forget that the campaign against Russia really kicked into a higher gear after Putin had scotched their ham-fisted plans for Ukraine, when they realised that they were far too inept to prevent Russia gaining more influence in the world. That's when the Septics started calling for sanctions, embargoes, death sentences for all ex-pat Russians, the burning of all Russian books and the renaming of Borscht stew in "freedom soup" (only kidding, in case you had't noticed). In fact, all the sanctions did was to accelerate industrial domestic production in Russia and increase Russian exports to non-aligned countries. They also radically raised the standing and reputation of Russia in those same countries because they admired the way Putin stood up to the Septic bully-boys.

MsG
Your continued use of the word "septics" as a substitute for Americans does you no credit at all and likely as not, tends to piss people off; especially those who would enjoy an interesting debate on this emotive subject.
That said, you put forward an interesting argument in favour of American involvement in the affair. Unfortunately, like the rest of us mere mortals, you cannot back this up with any hard evidence. None of us are privy to the investigation evidence and can only rely on heresay and reported facts.
The majority of evidence as we know it certainly points towards Mr Putin's involvement in the affair, and should this be found to be true, I'm sure the International communities will call him to task for. I
It is interesting that you continue to speculate upon alleged American involvement. I do not believe this is the case, but feel that the British Government (note spelling) have kept the Americans appraised of the situation.
 

184461

On ROPS
On ROPs
Have a read. From ‘94 talking about Novichok: https://fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/cbw/jptac008_l94001.htm

Your point in #283 is that the bloke who helped develop it was tried for treason and ran to the US and you’d never heard of Novichok?
No.
My point being the guy who either invented it or worked on it (dependant on which media is accurate) has been living and working in the US since '92 when Bozzer let him depart.
Thus the US would know all about this particular CW and have the means to produce their own, or move the int on to unknown parties, as they had the guy that worked on it.
That's 26yrs ago.
Pretty hard to believe that it came as a complete surprise to anyone.

“The U.S.S.R. is the only country to have developed and produced these [Novichok] agents,” Jean Pascal Zanders, formerly a senior research fellow at the European Union Institute for Security Studies, told Mark Peplow at Chemical & Engineering News. “It’s almost as though the Russians are sending a message to the West that they can reach anywhere, whenever they like.”

"The Novichok agents were created under a clandestine program that continued despite international negotiations for a chemical weapons ban, according to former Soviet scientist and defector Vil Mirzayanov. That secrecy is why we still don’t know their exact chemical makeup. What we do know is that Novichok, Russian for “newcomer,” is actually a collection of chemical weapons that only become lethal after two, somewhat less deadly ingredients are mixed. These so-called binary nerve agents are thought to be safer to store, Mirzayanov wrote in 1995. But they’re also easier to hide from inspectors, especially if those two ingredients could masquerade as components of fertilizer or pesticides."

So the Vil came all the way to the US and even though he was the inventor or chemist or scientist involved with Novachok he actually didn't know how it worked?
Not much use to the septics then and hardly worth their while taking care of him for the last 26yrs before finally wheeling him out in a very counter-productive manner.
Of course, you already know all this and are just changing tact.
 

184461

On ROPS
On ROPs
OK. Done that.



The USA must have the formula since they had the guy who formulated it and had paid him Judas gold.

So, the USA (CIA Ninja wet-ops Div) decide to deploy a 50 year old Russian NA to murder a man and his daughter and a copper in a sleepy southern England town in order to fulfill their mission to......

er.... erm.... I am struggling here. Can you help?
Considering that Vil would have had to have gone out of way to be as useful as possible to the septics I think it would definitely have all be covered in his very, very long debrief 26yrs ago.
.
Don't you?
 
No.
My point being the guy who either invented it or worked on it (dependant on which media is accurate) has been living and working in the US since '92 when Bozzer let him depart.
Thus the US would know all about this particular CW and have the means to produce their own, or move the int on to unknown parties, as they had the guy that worked on it.
That's 26yrs ago.
Pretty hard to believe that it came as a complete surprise to anyone.
One of the people. You have no evidence the US has created Novichok and of course it would have to be declared.

“The U.S.S.R. is the only country to have developed and produced these [Novichok] agents,” Jean Pascal Zanders, formerly a senior research fellow at the European Union Institute for Security Studies, told Mark Peplow at Chemical & Engineering News. “It’s almost as though the Russians are sending a message to the West that they can reach anywhere, whenever they like.”

"The Novichok agents were created under a clandestine program that continued despite international negotiations for a chemical weapons ban, according to former Soviet scientist and defector Vil Mirzayanov. That secrecy is why we still don’t know their exact chemical makeup. What we do know is that Novichok, Russian for “newcomer,” is actually a collection of chemical weapons that only become lethal after two, somewhat less deadly ingredients are mixed. These so-called binary nerve agents are thought to be safer to store, Mirzayanov wrote in 1995. But they’re also easier to hide from inspectors, especially if those two ingredients could masquerade as components of fertilizer or pesticides."

So the Vil came all the way to the US and even though he was the inventor or chemist or scientist involved with Novachok he actually didn't know how it worked?
One of the people in the programme
Not much use to the septics then and hardly worth their while taking care of him for the last 26yrs before finally wheeling him out in a very counter-productive manner.
You mean after some time Snowden will not be looked after by Russia
Of course, you already know all this and are just changing tact.
I’m not changing anything. You’re the one coming up with different theories, albeit it’s always anti West and pro Russia
 

TheIronDuke

ADC
Book Reviewer
Considering that Vil would have had to have gone out of way to be as useful as possible to the septics I think it would definitely have all be covered in his very, very long debrief 26yrs ago.
.
Don't you?
Yes. I am sure he gave them his inside leg measurement and a shot at his wife.

The USA undoubtedy has the chemical formulation for the military grade NA used to try to murder British citizens on British soil.

Why would they?

Oh, hang about.... a CIA black op to discredit Dobbie the House Elf? Nah. Dobbie does that all by himself. Every time he takes his shirt off and jumps on a horse. I than God I live in a country where our Premier will never rip her shirt off and jump on a horse.

Steady at the back.....
 
And still no evidence of Russian involvement presented on this thread. It was just Russia because it was because we said so because we think so.

Cheers!
 
And still no evidence of Russian involvement presented on this thread. It was just Russia because it was because we said so because we think so.

Cheers!
Still no evidence it wasn’t Russia presented on this thread. A lot of obfuscation, denial and ‘whataboutery’ even conspiracies of US (and U.K.) black ops. Last I heard ‘highly likely’ but we await the OPCW report and a criminal investigation.
 
And still no evidence of Russian involvement presented on this thread. It was just Russia because it was because we said so because we think so.

Cheers!
If you see hoofprints, think horses, not zebras.

Phone 020 7925 0918 and ask for Theresa; tell her she's wrong to point the finger at Russia.
 
"Notice that the governments of the US, UK, France, and Germany did not require any evidence to decide that the Russian government used military-grade nerve gas to attack two people on an English park bench and a UK policeman. It makes no sense. There is no Russian motive.
The motive lies in the West. It is the latest orchestration in the ongoing demonization of Russia. The demonization is a huge boost to the power and profit of the military/security complex and prevents President Trump from normalizing relations. The military/security’s budget and power require a major enemy, and Russia is the designated enemy and will not be allowed to escape that assigned role."

Lies Can Lead to War - LewRockwell LewRockwell.com
His articles appear to be rather one sided: Paul Craig Roberts, Author at LewRockwell LewRockwell.com
 
Still no evidence it wasn’t Russia presented on this thread. A lot of obfuscation, denial and ‘whataboutery’ even conspiracies of US (and U.K.) black ops. Last I heard ‘highly likely’ but we await the OPCW report and a criminal investigation.
A lot of simpletons, though. Well three, anyway.
 

DaManBugs

LE
Book Reviewer
What big questions?

There has been attempted multiple murder in the UK with a Russian nerve agent
Either the Russians did it or they let somebody else obtain their nerve agent.


.
The only factual part in your post is the bit about the attempted double murder. All the rest is conjecture/fantasy, no doubt prompted by the uninterrupted flow of propaganda by the UK gobment. A gobment, by the way, that spit out the: "It was the Russians" line before it would've been logically possible to have credibly tested for any nerve agent, let alone a Russian one.

"Either the Russians did it, or the let somebody else obtain their nerve agent". Again, you're speculating and entirely without any proof - or is a quite clear UK gobment agenda "proof" for you?

Consider this: Kim Jong-nam killed by VX nerve agent, say Malaysian police
Topped with VX gas, as you may (or may not) have read. Now consider this:
VX - full name methylphosphonothioic acid - was first discovered by two chemists in the 1950s while they were working for the British company ICI.
It was patented by Ranajit Ghosh and J.F. Newman in 1952 but once it was discovered how lethal to humans VX was, all commercial research on the agent stopped.
The nerve agent is a class of organophosphate compounds which attacks its victims by making it impossible for muscles to relax.
I just don't remember the Malaysian authorities asking the Brits for an explanation as to how a nerve agent they developed was deployed in one of their airports. Nor was the Brit ambassador cited to the Ministry of the Interior (Malaysian version) to get a furious bollocking. There was also no talk about imposing sanctions on the UK.

However, you state with absolute certainty (and not just as your personal opinion) that a Russian nerve agent was used in the attack, even though there's not a trace of verifiable evidence that the substance even exists. Thus:
As recently as 2016 Dr Robin Black, Head of the Detection Laboratory at the UK’s only chemical weapons facility at Porton Down, a former colleague of Dr David Kelly, published in an extremely prestigious scientific journal that the evidence for the existence of Novichoks was scant and their composition unknown.
Now, on to yon Ivan who's supposed to have "blown the whistle" on all of this and who now lives in the US. He states, rather confusingly, that it could only have been the Russians because they allegedly developed the stuff, or (and this is where the confusion comes in) anyone could've produced it using the formula that he published in his book called something like: "State Secrets".

But there's a bit more to the case than that. Your Ivan whistle-blower is a very unhappy man and has been for yonks. One of the Amazon reviews of his book states (and I paraphrase): "If you want to read how the author continually slags off everyone with whom he ever worked, then this is the book for you".

There's more to come. Your Ivan whistle-blower there was born in a "Stan" (I can't mind the name). He was highly pissed off that it became part of Russia at the beginning of the 1990s. So pissed off, in fact, that he lobbied loads of autonomous countries and regions within the Russian Federation to support his attempt to form a gobment-in-exile for his "Stan". They duly did so and a gobment-in-exile was formed, with ... wait for it ... your man Ivan the whistle blower as president! So now he has the title but no country to go with it. And there's very little likelihood that independence for his "Stan" will ever be granted; chiefly because the citizens there are doing fine as a part of Russia and have no wish for independence.

I'm therefore not surprised that he was one of the very first to point the finger at Russia and mention the mythical nerve agent which he allegedly (and entirely without supporting evidence) helped to create.

MsG
 

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