News story: New Year Honours for service personnel and defence civilians 2015

jim30

LE
I have no problem with anyone of any rank earning a state honour. I think this issue is not rank, but the harsh reality that in a system where to get one requires long service, conspicious demonstration of merit and a real outcome, the awards will usually fall to more senior and longh serving individuals by dint of the roles they do.

What would you rather - that private jones got an mbe for cleaning his part of the block better than anyone in the unit?

There is no conspiracy to keep the ORs down. The system rewards those who truly merit it - the reality is that just doing 22 years and becoming a competent operator and being good at the job you are well paid to do doesnt automatically mean you should get a gong for it.


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LancePrivateJones

MIA
Book Reviewer
I have no problem with anyone of any rank earning a state honour. I think this issue is not rank, but the harsh reality that in a system where to get one requires long service, conspicious demonstration of merit and a real outcome, the awards will usually fall to more senior and longh serving individuals by dint of the roles they do.

What would you rather - that private jones got an mbe for cleaning his part of the block better than anyone in the unit?

There is no conspiracy to keep the ORs down. The system rewards those who truly merit it - the reality is that just doing 22 years and becoming a competent operator and being good at the job you are well paid to do doesnt automatically mean you should get a gong for it.
I'm sorry Jim, I'm not convinced.

Of course Pte Jones doesn't deserve a BEM for block cleaning but S/Sgt or Sgt Jones should at least be considered as being equals within the HM Forces supervisory group which clearly hasn't happened this time or most other times come to that.

I am a bit at odds with the honours system, I work in local government and the 'rush for gongs' (as we call it) is quite embarrassing twice a year with the same types of person getting honoured for basically doing their jobs (or not as the case may be).
I don't expect to be nominated for doing my job well even if I have to go the extra mile(s) to achieve my objectives.
My reward is a job well done to my standards, that'll do me thanks.

I also witnessed the pathetic posturing by officers of the RA during the Queens review of the regiment in BAOR during 1984, I have never witnessed anything quite like it to be honest,

I think the honours system is an anachronism with the same old people rewarding the same old people as this latest list clearly shows.

A thought for you Jim; What do you think an intelligent civvy would make of the latest list?
 
I know it's common to bemoan the lack of juniors on these lists, but for the most part these awards represent many years of commitment and service to get one. They are rightly not handed out easily. By definition if you are I the running for one, you are long past the point where you are a junior, unless you've really got your heart set on that 22yr vet RSM pension...


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Behave Jim,

Majors expect MBEs and by hook or by crook will get one.

Colonels expect OBEs and by hook or by crook will get one.
 
I am an ex officer and CS. From my perspective, average length of service is 8 years (if that) for many other ranks. This means the window for opportunity for an award is tiny as once outside training you'll only have a small time to demonstrate a piece of work and leadership so great that you get written up for a gong. This applies equally to young officer and junior soldiers.

To get to the stage where you are in the running for an mbe or obe, you need to have shown something pretty special and warranted a write up for it, going beyond just the normal means of recognition in the system (I am very big on recognition and it depresses me that all three services don't use the full range of opportunities at their disposal). For a junior solider again it's difficult to find many opportunities where they are operating in an environment where they can do this without many others sharing a similar work experience.

It's also incumbent on everyone at all levels of the system to show leadership to write up and recognise commitment too. This isn't just about Col Bloggs refusing to write someone up, it's about everyone in the leadership chain from Lance Jack upwards spotting and recognising the sort of talent and commitment that makes them tell their own superiors about it and ensuring Pte Bloggs gets recognised. We hear lots of moaning about how ORs are not recognised, but how many in their chain have done their utmost to write them up for it at all levels?

I've never sensed a conspiracy to keep the little man down, more a reality that the threshold to get one is very high, the window where ones career makes them likely to be able to work to qualify for one is very small, and most people don't stay serving long enough to qualify and the entire system doesn't always do it's best to recognise efforts of others.


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It is also the unit personnel.

A certain unit had a good handful have received the QVRM another unit I know has no one who has ever had one.
 

Bogey_Miner

Old-Salt
I don't regard this sort of nonsense as important.

I see someone with post-nominals other than VC/GC or similar I think 'wonder who they noshed to get that?'

Sad but true.
 
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CivPlod

Guest
I don't regard this sort of nonsense as important.

I see someone with post-nominals other than VC/GC or similar I think 'wonder who they noshed to get that?'

Sad but true.

Sad but very true in most cases, but that aside I do know some jnr people who work their arse off that are deserving.



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Woolly

Clanker
Behave Jim,

Majors expect MBEs and by hook or by crook will get one.

Colonels expect OBEs and by hook or by crook will get one.
But does that make it right?
I know its the way of the world, however ...
Given the revelations over the last year about those who have been "honoured" previously, who would really want to join their number?
 

LancePrivateJones

MIA
Book Reviewer
But does that make it right?
I know its the way of the world, however ...
Given the revelations over the last year about those who have been "honoured" previously, who would really want to join their number?
Which is something of a comfort to me as I will never be nominated.

Local Government nominations only go to senior Local Government Officers in my place.

Blimey, did I mention officers again.

Oops, ever so sorry...
 
I find myself agreeing with both Jim and LancePrivateJones, whilst not sitting on the fence!

An honours system that effectively excludes the majority of the Army is blatantly unfair and, given the complete lack of JNCOs on the Army list, that seems to be the case.

But that doesn't mean that the selection system is inherently biased against junior ranks. The bar is very high, the allocation is small and the opportunities for NCOs to make a contribution that is competitive (in the context of the award) is small. Which is where I agree with Jim's argument.

The case for reintroduction of the military division of the BEM looks pretty strong to me. I'd also like to see a clear de-linking between rank and award. Whilst Dingerr's observation about Majors expecting MBEs and Lt Cols OBEs isn't actually true, it does reflect widely held suspicion. Until people of the rank of Major or below get an OBE or above, that will always be the case.

Personally, I don't think John Major went anywhere near far enough with democratising the honours system. I'd simplify it down to one award, with perhaps four to five levels and I'd bin titles. Why we need to call people Sir or Lord in 21st Century Britain beats me.
 

LancePrivateJones

MIA
Book Reviewer
I find myself agreeing with both Jim and LancePrivateJones, whilst not sitting on the fence!

An honours system that effectively excludes the majority of the Army is blatantly unfair and, given the complete lack of JNCOs on the Army list, that seems to be the case.

But that doesn't mean that the selection system is inherently biased against junior ranks. The bar is very high, the allocation is small and the opportunities for NCOs to make a contribution that is competitive (in the context of the award) is small. Which is where I agree with Jim's argument.

The case for reintroduction of the military division of the BEM looks pretty strong to me. I'd also like to see a clear de-linking between rank and award. Whilst Dingerr's observation about Majors expecting MBEs and Lt Cols OBEs isn't actually true, it does reflect widely held suspicion. Until people of the rank of Major or below get an OBE or above, that will always be the case.

Personally, I don't think John Major went anywhere near far enough with democratising the honours system. I'd simplify it down to one award, with perhaps four to five levels and I'd bin titles. Why we need to call people Sir or Lord in 21st Century Britain beats me.
Not quite accurate, there was one RAuxAF Cpl and one SAC from the proper RAF I think.

Whilst I don't agree with everything that you say it is still a good post.
 
Not quite accurate, there was one RAuxAF Cpl and one SAC from the proper RAF I think.

Whilst I don't agree with everything that you say it is still a good post.
Did I miss us being absorbed back into the Army? I know your comment was about JR's generally; but I think it's fairly commonly held that the RAF are happier to recognise JR's than the Army.
 

LancePrivateJones

MIA
Book Reviewer
Did I miss us being absorbed back into the Army? I know your comment was about JR's generally; but I think it's fairly commonly held that the RAF are happier to recognise JR's than the Army.
In this case I would suggest that is quite obvious even with the pitiful amount awarded.

PS; Sorry about the Army/RAuxAF confusion, I was as you correctly state referring to Junior Ranks across the board.
 
In this case I would suggest that is quite obvious even with the pitiful amount awarded.

PS; Sorry about the Army/RAuxAF confusion, I was as you correctly state referring to Junior Ranks across the board.
No it's OK you just had me scrambling for the PVR button because I'm vigilant for our disbandment as 2018 approaches ;)
 
In this case I would suggest that is quite obvious even with the pitiful amount awarded.
Only two out of 28, less than 2%. And only one SNCO. I don't think you can draw any different conclusions about from the RAF list over the Army's (or the Navy's); they are all heavily weighted towards seniority.

One thing that strikes me about the Army list (and, but less so the RAF's) is the number of Colonels and Lieutenant Colonels (or equivalent) getting MBEs. Pre the democratisation of awards, that wouldn't have occurred; if they weren't good enough to get an OBE, they got nothing. Presumably the OBE quota hasn't changed, whilst effectively remaining exclusive to Lt Col and above, so is this squeezing out the more junior?
 
There is no conspiracy to keep the ORs down. The system rewards those who truly merit it - the reality is that just doing 22 years and becoming a competent operator and being good at the job you are well paid to do doesnt automatically mean you should get a gong for it. /QUOTE]

The LS&GC is there for a reason....................................
 

LancePrivateJones

MIA
Book Reviewer
The LS&GC is there for a reason....................................
Not quite sure what you mean there rickshaw.
Word is that the LS&GC is going to be available to officers in the near future which is a move that I strongly support.
I don't know if they qualify for the MSM but they should IMO.

It is about time that the honours system was equalised but it won't, not for Junior Ranks or SNCO's anyway.

Those in charge are happy with their system and even admit that it is unfair, I get the strong impression that they like it that way.

After all, unfairness isn't a natural phenomenon, it is man made and is easily fixed.

They clearly are horrified at the prospect of fixing it, not least because to do so would mean admitting that there is something radically wrong, and they have had plenty of time to recognise this fact.
 
C

CivPlod

Guest
As is Rank (retired).

The door Swings both ways.


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