News story: New medal unveiled to recognise the fight against Daesh

seaweed

LE
Book Reviewer
#83
Somebody who actually knows about this will surely put me right, probably with a bucketful of well-deserved ARRSE invective, but I understood that the South Atlantic Medal was widely distributed to all sorts of supporters but with a rosette for those who were actually in danger. Seemed a sensible precedent.

As to that very model of a modern major general, perhaps he believes the frigates' and destroyers' people in the Falklands should not have received SAMs? One would like to think that 1SL got that pongo's horoscope read.
 
#84
56,000 miles and a Gold Card. The Honours and state awards team lost my address, it seemed.
tell the Ambo that its the norm and expected to be staffed through the FCO route not the MOD - Bob's your mother's brother.
 
#85
Tosh. I’m not sure you have a locus standi in the matter either - or does white knighting for reaper crews edge a civvy blogger ever closer to the chance of a medal?
I've no desire to get another medal, I've plenty of them as it is thanks.

Its amazing what you can get on ebay these days...
 
#86
Tosh. I’m not sure you have a locus standi in the matter either - or does white knighting for reaper crews edge a civvy blogger ever closer to the chance of a medal?
A touch harsh on the old blogger there, VM.

I think that, on this issue, he is not so much wrong as wrong headed: in a previous thread on this thorny subject, he seemed (to me) to have an issue with the 'risk' aspect of 'risk and rigour'.
 
#87
A touch harsh on the old blogger there, VM.

I think that, on this issue, he is not so much wrong as wrong headed: in a previous thread on this thorny subject, he seemed (to me) to have an issue with the 'risk' aspect of 'risk and rigour'.
My issue is that we apply more value to risk than rigour, and that I think ultinately Recognition and Retention is more important.

Would civilisation really collapse if more people wwre awarded a medal? If the answer is 'no'then does it matter who gets one as long as they worked in some way on the operqtion for the required qualifying time.

If needs be make it growing time - 30 days in theate, 60 days in cyprus or elsewhere and 180 days in UK?
 

seaweed

LE
Book Reviewer
#88
Way back in the days of Konfrontasi the RN kept a DD/FF by rotation on a 28 day tour in Sabah as Tawau Guardship. The criterion for a Borneo GSM clasp was 30 days.
 
#89
My issue is that we apply more value to risk than rigour, and that I think ultinately Recognition and Retention is more important.

Would civilisation really collapse if more people wwre awarded a medal? If the answer is 'no'then does it matter who gets one as long as they worked in some way on the operqtion for the required qualifying time.

If needs be make it growing time - 30 days in theate, 60 days in cyprus or elsewhere and 180 days in UK?
I think the question is where does it end?

Let’s take PJHQ. People have suggested the J3 Ops team get it. If they do - what about the rest of the OT? They all contribute - and 8 and 9 are normally CS so we should include them. How about DACOS A who runs SHADER, TORAL and another couple of Ops. Does he get all the medals? How about ACOS J3? Does he leave PJHQ with a hefty tailoring bill? What about the J5 team? The SO2 will be swept up with the OT. But what about the DACOS? How about ACOS J5? How about COS (Ops) or CJO. All
Absolutely fundamental to every Operation.

What about the sS. ADOC isn’t as Ops specific but the programming and FGen of FEs for Ops is vital? Do they get recognition? How about the 1 Div team who FGen most of the personnel for current Ops.

A trickle can become a wave can become a tsunami
 

FORMER_FYRDMAN

LE
Book Reviewer
#90
A bit of a moral maze but I don't have any difficulty with those actively engaging the enemy getting a medal for it. If they've found a cushy but effective firing point out of harm's way, well done them. It is, after all, what our training teaches us to aspire to.

We have no idea as yet what the long term mental effects of fighting this sort of war will be but killing is killing and they are taking direct responsibility for providing fire support, with all that that involves if it goes wrong. The psychological impacts of such mistakes are both considerable and very well known. In that regard, their role is very different from someone in PJHQ.

To say that they are not at risk is to argue that risk can only be defined in purely physical terms, which is both retrograde and a betrayal of those who return from conflicts in one piece physically but not mentally.

Finally, it seems dangerously tribal, and at odds with incisive thinking as to what the All Arms Battle looks like in the 21st century, to adopt an approach which suggests that drones and those who operate them are in some way not an integral and conventional part of our combat capability and should be considered as some sort of 'other'.
 
#91
My issue is that we apply more value to risk than rigour, and that I think ultinately Recognition and Retention is more important. . .
. . . then you seem to be blind (or blinkered) to the reasoning behind the award of British campaign medals, Jim. When men and women (Service and Civilian) are at risk of death or injury, in whatever part of the world they are operating, whilst in the service of the Crown, such service is recognised by a medallic award. Rigour may not go hand in hand with risk-but the Government of the day is obliged to recognise the 'risk'.

A good example of this was the institution of the clasp 'Northern Ireland' to the 1962-2008 GSM. The Government tied itself in knots as to whether NI service should be acknowledged with a medal. It would (in the view of some) set a dangerous precedent as it would be the first campaign medal awarded for service specifically within the United Kingdom.

It was believed in some quarters that it would appear that civil war had broken out because a 'campaign' medal had been awarded. Others viewed it that, whilst there was risk, rigour could not be assumed as troops went back to barrack rooms and MQs on completion of patrols and guards*.

Wiser heads, rightly, held the day: 'risk' and 'rigour' had been proven in spades. Thus those that served 30 days or more within Northern Ireland had that service acknowledged by the award of a medal.

I hope that those criteria continue to be applied.

*those old enough to have done a session at Flax St Mill, etc will guffaw loudly at the 'barrack room' description.
 

Guns

ADC
Moderator
Book Reviewer
#92
Remember focus, medals are a Joint effort.

Joint, spelt LAND and pronounced Army.

Op KIPION is the one that grips my shit. Not a green job in sight so obviously not really an Op. Risk? You sure cos I don't see a farmer with a AK. As A-T-G has pointed out risk comes in varies forms.
 
#93
I think the question is where does it end?

Let’s take PJHQ. People have suggested the J3 Ops team get it. If they do - what about the rest of the OT? They all contribute - and 8 and 9 are normally CS so we should include them. How about DACOS A who runs SHADER, TORAL and another couple of Ops. Does he get all the medals? How about ACOS J3? Does he leave PJHQ with a hefty tailoring bill? What about the J5 team? The SO2 will be swept up with the OT. But what about the DACOS? How about ACOS J5? How about COS (Ops) or CJO. All
Absolutely fundamental to every Operation.

What about the sS. ADOC isn’t as Ops specific but the programming and FGen of FEs for Ops is vital? Do they get recognition? How about the 1 Div team who FGen most of the personnel for current Ops.

A trickle can become a wave can become a tsunami
Part of me really doesn’t care...

Part of the other problem is the vast majority of what we are talking about is the “forever war” - SHADER came from TELIC which came from GRANBY, and SHADER is related to HERRICK and KIPION. There is a decent argument to be made that SHADER, TELIC, HERRICK and KIPION are simply facets of the same fight.

Either the solution is that there is a “GWOT” OSM (much like the US) or that we treat each operation equally - and remove the OSMs and replace them with CIB/CAR medal instead. Then there would be far more discrimination and equality: get shot at, get a medal; don’t get shot at, get nothing. SO2 H&S in Bastion - no medal; STTT in in a compound in a US compound - no medal; sat monitoring Iranian warships at ranges of less than 100m - no medal. Repeat and rinse.
 
#94
. . . then you seem to be blind (or blinkered) to the reasoning behind the award of British campaign medals, Jim. When men and women (Service and Civilian) are at risk of death or injury, in whatever part of the world they are operating, whilst in the service of the Crown, such service is recognised by a medallic award. Rigour may not go hand in hand with risk-but the Government of the day is obliged to recognise the 'risk'.

A good example of this was the institution of the clasp 'Northern Ireland' to the 1962-2008 GSM. The Government tied itself in knots as to whether NI service should be acknowledged with a medal. It would (in the view of some) set a dangerous precedent as it would be the first campaign medal awarded for service specifically within the United Kingdom.

It was believed in some quarters that it would appear that civil war had broken out because a 'campaign' medal had been awarded. Others viewed it that, whilst there was risk, rigour could not be assumed as troops went back to barrack rooms and MQs on completion of patrols and guards*.

Wiser heads, rightly, held the day: 'risk' and 'rigour' had been proven in spades. Thus those that served 30 days or more within Northern Ireland had that service acknowledged by the award of a medal.

I hope that those criteria continue to be applied.

*those old enough to have done a session at Flax St Mill, etc will guffaw loudly at the 'barrack room' description.
I don't disagree with your argument - I also fully recognise that some medals are significantly more risky than others. But, firstly, I'd note that the Army (as Alfred the great) has alluded to has for years refused to support an Op KIPION medal despite the men and women operating in an environment where they are regularly at risk of death or injury. Clearly its not a uniformly applied criteria.

Secondly, I don't for one moment argue that everyone should get the same medal - I'm arguing that you use clasps to denote service - so that its likely that RAF drone pilots will get a SHADER medal, but not one with a theatre clasp on it - much like my HERRICK medal has an 'Afghanistan' clasp. What matters here is the recognition of effort across the board, not just to a chosen few. Do you honestly and genuinely believe that the entire medals system is going to be debased and worthless because a small number of people in the UK qualify for the same basic medal as others operating in Iraq?

I'm arguing too that what is needed is a fourth type of medal (e.g. the current three are Gallantry, Campaign, Long Service), called something like the 'deployed service' category that is awarded only once after a set period of time deployed on non medal earning operations, to help recognise that many people in HM Forces deploy and do difficult work and never get any formal recognition for it.

Thats not debasing the medal system, but is a cheap and effective means of retention and helps showcase that people have public reward and recognition that they've done something with their career beyond the ordinary barrack room routine. Its not about debasing the 'value' of the OSM (which lets face it is arguably already hugely devalued when you compare the many different experiences of those who qualified for it in Iraq and Afghanistan), but helping recognise our people.

There is nothing inherently wrong with ensuring that we look out for, and recognise peoples service. One of the biggest issues and grips the RN MCMV force has at the moment is that its on a vastly higher operational tempo of overseas deployments to support work in the Middle East (some are on the 8th or 9th four month tour in less than 10 years) living and working in some really challenging conditions, and they've not got any medals to show for it, yet Pte Bloggs who does 30 days in Iraq gets one. In a retention poor environment, a small gesture like that could help boost morale in a critical part of national defence - and bluntly put the small RN MCMV force contribute a significant amount more to our wider diplomatic and political standing in the Middle East than the Army contribution does in Iraq.

We have to do right by our people - that is my simple mantra here. Reward and recognition is all that matters.
 
#95
and bluntly put the small RN MCMV force contribute a significant amount more to our wider diplomatic and political standing in the Middle East than the Army contribution does in Iraq.

We have to do right by our people - that is my simple mantra here. Reward and recognition is all that matters.
You seem to think people will be retained by gizzits. Not true - as argued by you in your blog where you note your delight at your Telic medal.

As someone who has been involved in both SHADER and KIPION - and would be medal earning if you got your way - I’m a bit surprised at you comment above. It’s not a view shared by the most dark blue of 3* joint Commanders. Another case of you being liberal with the truth to make a point?
 
#96
Alfred...you know the other maxim: its only true if a combat/PWO/Aircrew officer says it to a senior officer.
(apologies if you're a PWO - but you do seem too normal!)
I hate to break this to you...
 
#97
Lots of chat about Op Kipion. Where’s the line drawn? Sure guys on FF/DD and the MCMs are grafting and in harms way. What about those pissing it up in Bahrain either at the MCC or the other enablers living in some really smart SSSA type accommodation on the other side of town. Then what about the crabs at minhad or Oman, or the maritine liaison cell in Dubai ...you see the list goes on!
 

Guns

ADC
Moderator
Book Reviewer
#98
Lots of chat about Op Kipion. Where’s the line drawn? Sure guys on FF/DD and the MCMs are grafting and in harms way. What about those pissing it up in Bahrain either at the MCC or the other enablers living in some really smart SSSA type accommodation on the other side of town. Then what about the crabs at minhad or Oman, or the maritine liaison cell in Dubai ...you see the list goes on!
What SSSA? They are all living in barracks now. But yes some peoples experience differ - see comments about Afghanistan and the difference between BSN and a shitty outpost of the empire.
 
What SSSA? They are all living in barracks now. But yes some peoples experience differ - see comments about Afghanistan and the difference between BSN and a shitty outpost of the empire.
There were RN (and RAF) folk living in really smart civvy flats both in Manama and Muharraq. Granted they may all now be inside the wire at Jufair, but that’s a relatively recent iteration.
 

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