New York cops shoot at unarmed coloured chap 50 times.

[chocolate_frog]

And Rifleair, how come she walked away with no bullet holes? Something smells fishy about her story, and it isn't her.

 

[themaadone]

Tuna smells fishy!

 

[Bugsy]

It's rather unfair to try and implicate Glock pistols in this, since even as far back as 1998, when NYPD began converting to Glocks, the problem of too-light triggers (5kp) was recognised and Glock offered to rectify the situation with the so-called "New-York-trigger" (8 kps).

MsG

 

[Needle_Point]

Oh we've all done it; Did I fire six shots or only five, well you've got to ask yourself punk; "I am feeling lucky"

At least their commissioner hasn't hung them out to dry immediately....

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/27/n...a79a094ed61&hp&ex=1164690000&partner=homepage

They'll be some very very good pocketbook entries to describe that use of force!

 

[DrStealth]

i think the 'number of shots issue' is about the person pulling the trigger and how many times he thought he had to do so, more than what type of pistol was used.

 

[the_matelot]

American cops tend to over-react anyway.

I myself have been in the position where a yank cop in Virginia Beach drew his pistol on me because my oppo was having a p1ss in an alleyway and I was standing on the pavement waiting for him.

Was there really any need to do that??????

But questions need to be asked about why a cop fired 31 rounds at a group of unarmed people, irrespective of their alleged background history.

 

[LineDoggie]

How about irrespective of the fact they used their conveyance as a deadly weapon when they used it to try and run down a Police Officer?

 

[LineDoggie]

By the way, the Glock is not the Only issue Duty Handgun for NYPD. they have a Choice of the Glock, S&W series, & the Sig.

 

[hogspawn]

The pistol element is irrelevant, especially if it was reloaded!

The Glock's a fine bit of kit, never let me down.

Shite ammo has but that's another story!

Hopefully the situation will all be explained and not stirred up into a racial issue, God knows the US, or us for that matter, doesn't need anymore of that kind of thing.

 

[California_Tanker]

It seems that it's a little more complex than the BBC article indicates. From the New York Times.

Shortly after 3 a.m., Commissioner Kelly said, the undercover officer inside overheard a club dancer complain about a patron who appeared to be armed, and she went out to alert her supervisor and the backup team of possible trouble. About 4 a.m., as Mr. Bell and some of his friends left, a fight erupted outside. It was unclear who was involved, but it ended and those involved split into two groups.

Four men were then observed getting into Mr. Bell’s Nissan Altima, which drove a half block east on 94th Avenue and turned south into Liverpool Street. There it plowed into the unmarked police minivan on the driver’s side, apparently just missing a head-on collision. Witnesses said the car suddenly went into reverse, backing up onto a sidewalk where the undercover officer was positioned, then pulled forward and rammed the minivan a second time. That’s when the police opened fire, Mr. Kelly said.



Look at it from the cop's point of view:
You're at the donut shop, and get a call on the radio to the effect of:
"Officer requests backup, suspected armed males. Just got into an Altima." Maybe a few other details.

Then a minute or two later, that same Maxima hits your car. Reverses away, towards Officer Jane who you see standing on the footpath, and then goes forward and hits your car a second time, seriously enough that three coppers are by now injured. (Presumably lightly, but still)

What are you going to think as the cop?

NTM

 

[chocolate_frog]

What is definitly irrelevant is the pull on the trigger required to fire the pistol ONCE when it is clearly a question of how many rounds were fired aswell.

 

[California_Tanker]

What is definitly irrelevant is the pull on the trigger required to fire the pistol ONCE when it is clearly a question of how many rounds were fired aswell.

Why?

If the use of lethal force is justified, what difference does it make? Are you any less dead just because you got hit with a half-dozen rounds instead of thirty? (As it was, he was only hit twice)

Also, US cops 'Shoot to stop'. If there's no confirmation that the target has indeed stopped, they are entitled to keep pulling the trigger. There is no 'One shot, and see what happens' requirement. Nobody has yet been prosecuted for using a full magazine when one or two rounds would do the job.

NTM

 

[Strait_Jacket]

Despite the 'rights' or 'wrongs' of this particular scuffle stories like this make me glad our plod aren't routinely armed. At least when they screw up it's just a shock or a little CS and no body bags - Underground travel excluded.

 

[the_matelot]

Also, US cops 'Shoot to stop'. If there's no confirmation that the target has indeed stopped, they are entitled to keep pulling the trigger. There is no 'One shot, and see what happens' requirement. Nobody has yet been prosecuted for using a full magazine when one or two rounds would do the job.NTM

And there is your problem.

That seems to be a trend with the US Military as well....

 

[California_Tanker]

And there is your problem.

That seems to be a trend with the US Military as well....

Oh, heaven forbid that we should use an extra $4 worth of the taxpayer's ammunition when shooting someone.

NTM

 

[TheLordFlasheart]

If the use of lethal force is justified, what difference does it make? Are you any less dead just because you got hit with a half-dozen rounds instead of thirty?

Also, US cops 'Shoot to stop'. If there's no confirmation that the target has indeed stopped, they are entitled to keep pulling the trigger. There is no 'One shot, and see what happens' requirement. Nobody has yet been prosecuted for using a full magazine when one or two rounds would do the job.

NTM

The thing with using sufficient force ie the smallest number of rounds to achieve the job means the chances of collateral damage is reduced.

(As it was, he was only hit twice)

Where did the other 40 odd rounds go??? Pretty shocking from supposedly trained armed coppers.

From what you're saying, CT, it's ok for US coppers to drop a suspect then leather the fcuk out of him with sledge hammers, iron bars and any other object to hand as it wont make any difference because he's dead any way. Sorry to sound flippant, but I do not believe chucking a couple of mags into someone is justifyable if he has already been brought down. Now knowing only two rounds hit the chap, it must have been like the Alamo. Scary thought on a city street (all be it night time).

I have no opinion either way on this story. I first posted it because of the scenes I witnessed on the news at lunch time. It seemed pretty close to boiling point in the neighbourhood and NYC may see a rapid rise in tension over the next couple of days. The over riding factor is an unamred man (black) was shot at 50 times by the cops. He may well have been up to no good but Im sure the little facts will be missed when the streets turn into down town Bagdhad.

 

[TheLordFlasheart]

And there is your problem.

That seems to be a trend with the US Military as well....

Oh, heaven forbid that we should use an extra $4 worth of the taxpayer's ammunition when shooting someone.

NTM

It's called professional restraint. It's why soldiers and armed policemen practice on the range.

 

[Porridge_gun]

Might have been a wheel gun and therefore six reloads, in which case thats just showing off.

Won't be hard to find the gun man, he will be the one Moon walking, answering to the name Jerry Mculek

 

[Henry_Tombs]

Good job he wasn't carrying a table leg, I would hate to think of the consequences if he had!

 

[Trip_Wire]

Looks like you are right Hogspawn.

Interesting Journo take on the trials and tribulations of the Glock here

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2000/01/glock.html


NYPD Blue background on Firearms and tactics here

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/training/firearms_section.html

I own 2 Glocks one is the model 27, .40 Caliber the other is a model 20, in 10MM caliber. I carry the model 27, every time I leave my home.

I have many other pistols from SIG, H&K Colt and Detonics.

I think that the claims made by the first article you posted are a bunch of crap that was written by a biased anti-gun person, who has little data on the Glock or fireaems in general.

There is nothing wrong with the Glock pistol's trigger mechinisim. It is not a light trigger pull as it comes from the factory IMHO. It is a harder pull then my SIG 226, or H&K USP .45, which are not what I would call an easy trigger pull either, when you compare them to a cocked and locked Colt .45.

The trigger pull on a factory Glock also exceeds the trigger pull on a double action S&W revolver, which the NYPD was armed with prior to the Glock. The NYPD also had their issue Glocks modified with the 'New York' trigger, which made the trigger, even harder to pull.

That all said, IMHO, trigger pull, the Glock Pistol, etc. has nothing to do with the incident, except that since the adoption of high capacity semi-auto pistols by the major police departments, the number of rounds fired in police firefights, has increased. Not surprising is it?

I hesitate to condemn these officers, without all the facts; however, 50 rounds to me, does seem excessive, particulary when, so far, no mention of the people in the car firing at the police, nor has any firearm been taken into evidence. The one officer who fired 31 rounds, if he indeed, fired all of his ammo, broke one of the rules of gun fighting by shooting his pistol dry.

There is also the fact, that NYPD are not supposed to fire on cars, being used as weapons, according to what the NY Mayor, said at a news conference today. I don't quite understand this, as if someone tried to run me over on purpose with a car I would shoot him, and be alright with my Departments policy. The car becomes a deadly weapon.

Here is an article on Glock Triggers.:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_11_50/ai_n6209982