New Threats, New Weapons

Yokel

LE
Sea Skua was designed to deal with larger missile boat/Fast Attack Craft type targets, and was used in 1982 in the South Atlantic and in the 1991 Gulf Wat against Saddam's Navy. In due course, Sea Venom launched from Wildcat will fill that role.

Interestingly, the first missile fired in anger by the Royal Navy was derived from an anti tank missile - an AS12 fired from a Wasp near Sough Georgia.

This thread is about the threat from FIACs - small and fast surface craft. There small physical size, small radar cross section, and the fact that they might attack in number presents different problems.
 

Yokel

LE
MBDA demonstrates anti-surface capabilities of Mistral missile

MBDA say it has successfully demonstrated the use of the Mistral missile against fast boats.

The firm say that a number of foreign delegations attended the demonstration firing that was performed from a SIMBAD-RC automated naval turret firing from the land against a fast moving remotely-controlled semi-rigid boat more than 3 kilometres off the coast.

The scenario was intended to be representative of the self-protection of a vessel against an asymmetric threat (commando or terrorist attack).
 

Yokel

LE
Better training for close range weapons crews has been an issue for years. I remember reading a paper written by a student at the US Naval Post Graduate School that advocated using augmented reality for training upper deck gunners.

QinetiQ signs contract with the Royal Navy for gunnery training

Developed in partnership with the MOD’s Defence Science and Technology Laboratory (DSTL), the firm say that the Pointer data analytics and measurement system provides an effective link between the Command and Control function and weapon operators to counter threats from Fast In-shore Attack Craft (FIAC).

Featuring a weapon-mounted Laser Range Finder, Pointer T uses encoders to establish the precise position and attitude of weapon systems as well as the location of GPS-tracked threats and determines the nature and impact of ‘hits’.

This data is recorded and displayed in real-time on a portable situational awareness tool, providing trainers with accurate and measurable performance data to maximise the effectiveness of training exercises.
 
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I've an idea that will increase gunnery proficiency. More time and live rounds dedicated for training!

These days everyone just does the bare minimum training to keep people OPS and rushes them through to do it....
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
I've an idea that will increase gunnery proficiency. More time and live rounds dedicated for training!

These days everyone just does the bare minimum training to keep people OPS and rushes them through to do it....
Oh, come on, that's just crazy talk. You'd think you were discussing an outfit called the "armed" services or something.
 

Yokel

LE
I've an idea that will increase gunnery proficiency. More time and live rounds dedicated for training!

These days everyone just does the bare minimum training to keep people OPS and rushes them through to do it....
It was not only me this applied to....

Take Target Red 40.... BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG..... NEXT!

Oh, come on, that's just crazy talk. You'd think you were discussing an outfit called the "armed" services or something.
An augmented reality system would allow Gunners to be coached and to practice without wearing out barrels and using ammunition, and for realistic threats such as an approaching FIAC.

Could we use something like the Lightweight Multi-role Missile for countering the FIAC threat?
 
I've an idea that will increase gunnery proficiency. More time and live rounds dedicated for training!

These days everyone just does the bare minimum training to keep people OPS and rushes them through to do it....
One advantage of simulation is that you know everything that is happening, which is something that you don’t get in real life without appalling numbers of sensors.
And it’s cheaper and you can still train where you couldn’t use live rounds.
 

Yokel

LE
Related news from Washington DC:

Congress wants the Navy to prove it can fight off a swarm attack in new proposed bill

In the wake of a tense and ongoing maritime situation in the Persian Gulf, Congress is now asking how the U.S. Navy plans on dealing with potential swarms of small gunboats and drones- a favorite tactic of the Iranian Navy.

Massachusetts Democrat and Marine veteran Rep. Seth Moulton has introduced language into the 2020 national defense bill that would mandate a USN study on the topic of fighting swarms, expressing his concern that the Navy might not be as prepared as it believes it is.

“The [House Armed Services] committee is concerned that the Navy may be assuming too much risk with respect to the development of swarm technologies by adversaries,” the amendment states.
 
It was not only me this applied to....

Take Target Red 40.... BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG..... NEXT!



An augmented reality system would allow Gunners to be coached and to practice without wearing out barrels and using ammunition, and for realistic threats such as an approaching FIAC.

Could we use something like the Lightweight Multi-role Missile for countering the FIAC threat?
We have swanky simulators at Collingrad and for the most part they sit unused but for the odd class that just use them against the most basic targets for the initial weapons course.
 

Yokel

LE
We have swanky simulators at Collingrad and for the most part they sit unused but for the odd class that just use them against the most basic targets for the initial weapons course.
They were not working when I did the course. Hopefully we are talking about something that can simulate realistic threats, and can be carried onboard and used in exercises at the behest of the PWO/PDO (does the RFA still have PDOs?) or when the FOSTies visit for continuation training.

If simulation can transform pilot training (as @Magic_Mushroom says - a game changer), or simulate a carrier landing and be used to develop the techniques, what can it do for gunnery?
 
They were not working when I did the course. Hopefully we are talking about something that can simulate realistic threats, and can be carried onboard and used in exercises at the behest of the PWO/PDO (does the RFA still have PDOs?) or when the FOSTies visit for continuation training.

If simulation can transform pilot training (as @Magic_Mushroom says - a game changer), or simulate a carrier landing and be used to develop the techniques, what can it do for gunnery?
Yes they do, he keeps making me do work....
 

Mr._Average

Old-Salt
Meanwhile, ".. Royal Navy will use new laser beam weapon to guard HMS Queen Elizabeth.."

Some journalistic licence in the headline but an interesting story lurking in the article. £130m investment in laser tech with a prototype in a couple of years. The Americans are some way ahead of this but good to see we are doing something.

Royal Navy to use new laser beam weapon to guard Big Lizzie
 

Yokel

LE
Anyone who refers to 'Big Lizzie' should have laser pointed at them!

Wildcat is supposed to be armed to Martlet (which I understand is related to the LMM) for use agains small targets, and Sea Venom (Sea Skua replacement) for larger targets. If only these could be expedited!

Since LMM can be used in a surface to surface role, could it be used against the FIAC?
 

StormsInAfrica

Old-Salt
Anyone who refers to 'Big Lizzie' should have laser pointed at them!

Wildcat is supposed to be armed to Martlet (which I understand is related to the LMM) for use agains small targets, and Sea Venom (Sea Skua replacement) for larger targets. If only these could be expedited!

Since LMM can be used in a surface to surface role, could it be used against the FIAC?
Martlet will be equipping Wildcat HMA2 very soon as the Light part of the FASGW capability.

MBDA Sea Venom taking on the Heavy part and plugging the capability gap left by Sea Skua OSD.
 

Yokel

LE
Martlet will be equipping Wildcat HMA2 very soon as the Light part of the FASGW capability.

MBDA Sea Venom taking on the Heavy part and plugging the capability gap left by Sea Skua OSD.
Yes - I am sure I said that. They just need to expedite it!

Is Martlet derived from LMM? If so, why not use LMM in an anti FIAC mode? It is designed for use by troops in the field, so I imagine a shipborne launcher would be lighter than a 30mm gun, and could be controlled from the Operations Room or Bridge.
 

StormsInAfrica

Old-Salt
Yes - I am sure I said that. They just need to expedite it!

Is Martlet derived from LMM? If so, why not use LMM in an anti FIAC mode? It is designed for use by troops in the field, so I imagine a shipborne launcher would be lighter than a 30mm gun, and could be controlled from the Operations Room or Bridge.
You would think so but probably not for this forum.
 
Yes - I am sure I said that. They just need to expedite it!

Is Martlet derived from LMM? If so, why not use LMM in an anti FIAC mode? It is designed for use by troops in the field, so I imagine a shipborne launcher would be lighter than a 30mm gun, and could be controlled from the Operations Room or Bridge.
Hey mate, the big problem would Logistical and budgetary. What is the NEQ of each missile round, How does it need to be stored safely, how much does each round cost, how can it be handled, whats the sensitivity to radio emissions, who maintains it, who trains them to maintain it, who operates it, who trains them to operate it, what are the waterspace management constraints to conduct shoots, can you conduct shoot with out a special target and of course can we afford to buy it. Which we can't. Where as the various 20mm/30mm mounts are in the system and are a known quantity.

God i'm getting boring in my old age...
 

Yokel

LE
Hey mate, the big problem would Logistical and budgetary. What is the NEQ of each missile round, How does it need to be stored safely, how much does each round cost, how can it be handled, whats the sensitivity to radio emissions, who maintains it, who trains them to maintain it, who operates it, who trains them to operate it, what are the waterspace management constraints to conduct shoots, can you conduct shoot with out a special target and of course can we afford to buy it. Which we can't. Where as the various 20mm/30mm mounts are in the system and are a known quantity.

God i'm getting boring in my old age...
I am sure RM Air Defence Troop/RA Gunners took Javelin aboard certain RFA (not sure about MCMVs) in the Gulf in 1991, I wonder if they could still do that, but now with LMM....and have an anti surface role too.

Good to see someone is paying attention to detail.
 

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