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New TA Battalion VCs

#1
With the formation of the new TA battalions such as 3 RAng, 7 Rifles, etc, how many VC's have they got? These battalions are now made up from the decendants of dozens of former volunteer regiments/battalions so there must be quite a few VC's associated with them. I know the Londons have 7 from WW1
 
#2
None is the answer, they belong to their parent regiments. I'm not sure about Londons thou, they fought WW1 as an independent regt?? So in theory they are one of the few TA regiments that can lay claim to VC's (others include HAC etc - weren't they also a Bn of the Londons in WW1).
If I'm correct this also means Londons can also claim to own the VC's that Westminster Rifles etc earned (at that time they were Londons Regt)

So confused (wouldn't mind to be corrected please don't let this turn into a Londons/RGJ bitch fest thread)
 
#4
No they inherit them via past regiments i.e. Mercians gain WFR VC's who in turn had gained them from Notts and Derbys (both regular and TA). They also have the Robin Hood Rifles VC's (Robin Hoods was a sub regiment of the Notts & Derbys), even thou the Robin Hoods are now Royal Engineers (or Signals).

Getting back to the Londons, Queen Victoria Rifles were a sub regiment of the Londons, so by what happened in the rest of the country, then the resurected Londons would own their VC's. I suspect this didn't apply to Londons 'sub' regiments.
 
#5
Rather awkward question, as they aren't the whole of the TA Infantry (or whatever) for that area. The companies are successors to old TA Bns.

For 7th Bn, The Rifles:

HQ Coy: 4th Bns, Royal Berks and 4th Duke of Edinburgh's (Wiltshire)
A Coy and E Coy: 4th Bn, Ox and Bucks LI
F Coy: 9th and 16th Londons
G Coy: 5th and 12th Londons

Other Bns (for example New Army Bns from WW1) are not perpetuated.
 
#6
The HAC Infantry Bn and the Inns of City were alloted numbers in the Londons, but never accepted the numbers (26th and 27th Bns respectively).

The Artillery Arm of the HAC was effectively absorbed by the RFA as 1st and 2nd City of London Artillery (respectively A and B Btys, HAC), not breaking free of the RA until 1973 (which simultaneously saw the reduction of HAC Infantry Company to 3 Sqn).
 
#7
Sapukay said:
Rather awkward question, as they aren't the whole of the TA Infantry (or whatever) for that area. The companies are successors to old TA Bns.

For 7th Bn, The Rifles:

HQ Coy: 4th Bns, Royal Berks and 4th Duke of Edinburgh's (Wiltshire)
A Coy and E Coy: 4th Bn, Ox and Bucks LI
F Coy: 9th and 16th Londons
G Coy: 5th and 12th Londons

Other Bns (for example New Army Bns from WW1) are not perpetuated.
A Coy is descended from the 4th (TA) Battalion OBLI but E Coy is really linked to the Buckinghamshire Battalion.

As far as the rural part of what will be 7 RIFLES is concerned, there are (I think) three VCs.
1. Capt Robert Loyd-Lindsay, 20 Sep 1854, Battle of The Alma, Crimean War (linked to RGBWLI in Reading)
2. CSM Brooks: 2/4th OBLI, 28 Apr 1917, Fayet.
3. LCpl Wilcox: 2/4th OBLI, 12 Sep 1918, Laventie.
 
#8
If these battalions are members of , for example, The Royal Anglians and The Rifles they have the same entitlement to claim the VCs as do the 1st , 2nd and whatever battalions as the VCs are the regiment's rather than individual battalions. It must be remembered that in WW1 in particular most regiments were composed of up to 25 battalions , all the VC s were not won by the 1st or regular battalions. Honours are shared by all battalions of a regiment irrespective of which battalion won them.
 
#9
Aye, although 4th Bn (the old 2nd Oxfordshire Vols) and Bucks Bn (the old 1st Bucks Vols) were properly merged into 4 OBLI before reduction to a coy of 4 RGJ, I find on checking that elms of the Bucks Bn survived as the TAVR III Bucks RA Rgt, which became D Coy, 4RGJ in 1971. Strange things happened with TAVR III...

In a similar manner, HQ Coy RRV can claim 6 Royal Berks as well, via absorbtion by 4 R Berks.

That came out different than I intend, I didn't mean to imply 6 members of HQ Coy with Royal Berks....
 
#10
craftsmanx said:
If these battalions are members of , for example, The Royal Anglians and The Rifles they have the same entitlement to claim the VCs as do the 1st , 2nd and whatever battalions as the VCs are the regiment's rather than individual battalions. It must be remembered that in WW1 in particular most regiments were composed of up to 25 battalions , all the VC s were not won by the 1st or regular battalions. Honours are shared by all battalions of a regiment irrespective of which battalion won them.
Interesting question, which I think points out the breakdown of the old regimental system (and the long slide towards a Corps of Infantry). At the time, the VCs were won by Bns, which before the Depotisation of the Infantry were still clinging to old designations.

A clear example of this is in the contempory photos of D/2OBLI on the walls of the A/7 Rifles barracks, which still call the Bn "52nd Light Infantry".

A case of perceptions shifting to meet different circumstances I think.
 
#11
craftsmanx said:
Honours are shared by all battalions of a regiment irrespective of which battalion won them.
I don't think thats true, you have to bear in mind that many TA units changed parent corps/regiment. As you and sapauky talked about the RA unit only regained the shared ownership when they came back to RGJ.

I don't think the regimental system works in the TA, yes it does in part, but my current unit I believe is more typical of the TA. Our regiment was 49 Bde or Yorks Vols (or even 3 DWR, 3 WFR or 3 PWO), we've banded together along these lines even though we are Royal Corps of Signals.

I'm of the 3rd generation of my family who were TA soldiers from Nottingham, our 'regiment' has worn at least 5 different cap badges although we have all joined the same 'regiment'. Our 'regiment' has left its history in several corps and regiments, its a pity we can't keep it to ourselves.
 
#12
Sapukay said:
A clear example of this is in the contempory photos of D/2OBLI on the walls of the A/7 Rifles barracks, which still call the Bn "52nd Light Infantry".
The marriage of the 43rd and 52nd was not a happy one. There is a yarn that concerns a diehard 52nd officer who shaved with a cut throat razor. He would sharpen it on a leather strop fifty-two times each morning before shaving but when he reached 43 he would spit.

Both regular OBLI battalions carried on using their former numerical designations colloquially but I have yet to find evidence that any similar hardline attitudes existed in the territorials.

The main difference between the regulars and terriers in this respect was that the territorial soldiers all came from the same place whereas the regular battalion would move every few years, recruiting from wherever they found themselves. This was why the ranks of the 12th of Foot were for a while predominantly Irish in spite of being the Suffolks. I can see why the number would mean more to the regular than the geographical link.

On the question of VC ownership, it belongs to the man and no-one else. Proud though I am of my forbears, all the regimental willy-waving in the world will not change this fact.
 
#13
The Bucks Bn not using the monkier "5th Bn" that was designed for them? An indication that the two TA Bns considered themselves to still effectively be the 2nd Ox Vols and 1st Bucks Vols under different names?
 
#14
Sapukay said:
The Bucks Bn not using the monkier "5th Bn" that was designed for them? An indication that the two TA Bns considered themselves to still effectively be the 2nd Ox Vols and 1st Bucks Vols under different names?
I'm not saying that isn't true, just that the anecdotal evidence isn't as strong as that of the regular battalions. For instance I've seen no evidence of either battalion referring to themselves by those names post-Haldane. Have you? Colloquially, I'm fairly sure the Bucks referred to themselves as 'The Buckinghamshire Battalion'...no figure at all until 1914.

FYI the Buckinghamshire identity is still strong amongst the civil and military old & bold of the county who prefer to 'plough their own furrow'; I think it was this rather than any animosity towards Oxfordshire that drove them to keep an independent name.
 
#15
They have Major Howard's shoulder insignia in the museum at Pegasus Bridge. I was suprised to see that his cloth shoulder titles read 52nd Regt rather than OBLI - now I am beginning to understand why.
 
#16
If you read through the Chronicles, the number of different shoulder flashes introduced and withdrawn in the last years beggars belief. The battle over whether they should be '52nd', 'OBLI', 'Oxf. & Bucks' etc raged for years and it was the height of clothing rationing too.
But I guess it wouldn't be the British Army if this sort of thing didn't happen.
 
#17
Bailey said:
They have Major Howard's shoulder insignia in the museum at Pegasus Bridge. I was suprised to see that his cloth shoulder titles read 52nd Regt rather than OBLI - now I am beginning to understand why.
The OX and Bucks were amalgamated in 1881 as the Oxfordshire LI. In 1908 they became known as the Ox and Bucks. However there was still a 1/1 Buckinghamshire Bn which was TA and served through WW1 as such. During WW2 the 1st Bn would be known as 42nd, the 2nd Bn as 52nd. In 1949 they became 1 Bn and in 1958 they were transferred from the Light Infantry Brigade and became 1 Green Jackets (43 & 52):wink:
 
#18
Wrong - in 1881 the 52nd of Foot became the 2nd Battalion, The Oxfordshire Light Infantry

In 1908 they became the 2nd Battalion, The Oxfordshire and 1908.10.16 2nd Battalion, The Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry

In 1948 they amalgamated with the 1st Bn to form the Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry

In 1958 they became the 1st Green Jackets (43rd and 52nd)

In 1966 they became the 1st Battalion, The Royal Green Jackets (43rd and 52nd)

In 1967 they became the 1st Battalion, The Royal Green Jackets

and in 1992 they were disbanded.
 
#20
This is a non-question. VCs are awarded to individuals not to Battalions or Regiments.

Naturally, Regiments and Battalions will wish to honour the memory of VC winners with a connection to their Regiment, but this doesn't mean any sort of 'official' connection between a VC and a Regiment.

The new Regiments will look at their predecessors' history and identify VCs that they regard were won by their regiment. In some cases this is a bit academic, you may well find that some VCs are remembered by more than one Regiment.

This is already the case with many VCs especially where an officer was commissioned into one Regiment, but was serving with another. In this case both Regiments will generally commemorate the VC winner. There's nothing wron with this and no 'rule' against it.
 

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