New female infanteers - how's it going?

Sarastro

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Your post makes no sense. The vast majority of women use contraception effectively and there can't be many who are clueless that they're pregnant at five months. I also know the circumstances under which she got pregnant because it was an open secret in the unit and her pregnancy was detected very early on.

As for the invasion date - I guarantee that it was certainly not known to junior ranks in Christmas of 2002 and it was touch and go as to whether we would even take part until very late in the day.
So leaving aside your secret information, which obviously I can't judge (I'm also highly skeptical about the accuracy of 'open secrets' in most regiments, given that most of those I encountered were at least partially bollocks):

If she didn't know less than 3 months prior to deploying that she was about to deploy, how could she know that she needed to be using contraception? Are you suggesting that any woman in any Army role which might be deployed (i.e. all of them) should be disallowed from having children? Even if you are, was that actually Army policy at the time?

I think my post makes quite a lot of sense. Not so sure about yours.
 

Sarastro

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
It was in fact a joke...
Fair enough. I'll cop to being more sensitive and humourless than average about that particular topic.
 
Well - I suppose it depends on what role you are in and what your aspirations are.

Old money Infantry

Wheeze over the BFT line 10 . 29 or fall over the CFT line 1.59.30 -

  • Ain't going to get you a slot on the next JNCO's Cadre if you are a Pte
  • Ain't going to get you a slot on the next Junior Brecon if you are a Lcpl
  • Ain't going to get you a slot on the next Senior Brecon if you are a Cpl / Sgt.
On the contrary, in Infantry terms, it gains you everything by being able to exceed those minimum standards.
Contrary wise, I can recall trade upgrade courses where above 95% rated an A grade, with a pass mark/ acceptable standard of 65%.
Those that passed, irrespective of grade, won a pay rise. Otherwise no noticeable benefit to doing better than minimum which, when you think about it, meant the majority could remember just over half of what they'd just been taught.
 

FORMER_FYRDMAN

LE
Book Reviewer
So leaving aside your secret information, which obviously I can't judge (I'm also highly skeptical about the accuracy of 'open secrets' in most regiments, given that most of those I encountered were at least partially bollocks):

If she didn't know less than 3 months prior to deploying that she was about to deploy, how could she know that she needed to be using contraception? Are you suggesting that any woman in any Army role which might be deployed (i.e. all of them) should be disallowed from having children? Even if you are, was that actually Army policy at the time?

I think my post makes quite a lot of sense. Not so sure about yours.

Perhaps because her probable conception date post-dated her call up? You protest too much.

And the invasion date was still not generally known at Christmas 2002.
 
Contrary wise, I can recall trade upgrade courses where above 95% rated an A grade, with a pass mark/ acceptable standard of 65%.

The point being discussed was fitness, not trade courses.

My points were Infantry specific, and in old money the 2 major Trade / Promotion Courses for the Infantry were Junior & Senior Brecon, which you would not get a place on if you were at a standard of just wheezing over the finish line in Fitness Tests with seconds to spare.

Sure, I can appreciate that there are roles where fitness is perhaps not as important as other roles. The Army is not one all encompassing role and I can / will only speak about Infantry roles, which were my bread and butter.
 
The point being discussed was fitness, not trade courses.

My points were Infantry specific, and in old money the 2 major Trade / Promotion Courses for the Infantry were Junior & Senior Brecon, which you would not get a place on if you were at a standard of just wheezing over the finish line in Fitness Tests with seconds to spare.

Sure, I can appreciate that there are roles where fitness is perhaps not as important as other roles. The Army is not one all encompassing role and I can / will only speak about Infantry roles, which were my bread and butter.
When did you leave?
 
Were CFT in your time best effort? Ours were always strictly time controlled by the PTI - between 1hr 55min and 2 hours from memory.

Official CFT's were controlled by PTI's as per your understanding above.

Unofficial CFT's were common and always best effort.

Camp to Ranges, Ranges to Camp, CO's Friday PT etc.
 
Official CFT's were controlled by PTI's as per your understanding above.

Unofficial CFT's were common and always best effort.

Camp to Ranges, Ranges to Camp, CO's Friday PT etc.
Ahh, gotcha - thanks.
 
None of which unofficial ones were to a standard. The whole point of CFT was to get a body of armed troops from A to B and get there able to fight as a group.

I think you are missing my point completely.

I know what the purpose of a CFT was.

An old money CFT was 8 miles in 2 hours carrying X amount of kit.

An unofficial CFT was 8 miles best effort carrying the same X amount of kit.

My whole point ( For the Infantry ) is that the Official CFT was the minimum standard - If you struggled to achieve that minimum standard as an Infanteer, you would not be getting on a Career Course. In the case of the Infantry, that being Junior / Senior Brecon ( Or in new money, SCBC / PSBC )

* They were to a standard - A selected 8 mile route and carrying the same weight as an Official CFT.

** COP selection standards - BFT in under 9 minutes, CFT in under 1hr.30min ( As far as I am aware these timings are not official and never have been )
 
I was infantry reserve 92-93 before joining the Royal Air Force, I have experienced both old and new fitness tests and standards.
I just asked to see when the last time you performed a fitness test in the armed forces?

TBH we Have had this discussion many times on arrse, 99% of people who make negative comments, derogatory Comments about females, and or non infantry capbadges tend to be 20 years out of date.
 
I was infantry reserve 92-93 before joining the Royal Air Force, I have experienced both old and new fitness tests and standards.

I'm impressed - I am confident that your year in the Infantry reserves trumps my Infantry 22 years Regular Service

TBH we Have had this discussion many times on arrse, 99% of people who make negative comments, derogatory Comments about females, and or non infantry capbadges tend to be 20 years out of date.

Top Tips for you

1. Go and find a post anywhere on ARRSE where I have made negative comments or been derogatory about females in the Army.

2. Sort your mangled English out.

3. Stop stalking me.

I have been rather polite - Take the hint.
 
I think you are missing my point completely.

I know what the purpose of a CFT was.

An old money CFT was 8 miles in 2 hours carrying X amount of kit.

An unofficial CFT was 8 miles best effort carrying the same X amount of kit.

My whole point ( For the Infantry ) is that the Official CFT was the minimum standard - If you struggled to achieve that minimum standard as an Infanteer, you would not be getting on a Career Course. In the case of the Infantry, that being Junior / Senior Brecon ( Or in new money, SCBC / PSBC )

* They were to a standard - A selected 8 mile route and carrying the same weight as an Official CFT.

** COP selection standards - BFT in under 9 minutes, CFT in under 1hr.30min ( As far as I am aware these timings are not official and never have been )
I don't doubt your assertions for an infanteer, I'm pointing out that the whole idea of a standard is it applies to everybody.
Raising that standard for infantry ncos, specialist teams, airborne / commando etc etc means you've now changed the standard and created multiple new ones.
That may work for infantry, but it's not transferable to other arms:
is a driver that passes his LGV test in less time than the average better?
Do gunners need to hike 5 miles in full kit?
And so on.
 

Sarastro

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
An old money CFT was 8 miles in 2 hours carrying X amount of kit.

An unofficial CFT was 8 miles best effort carrying the same X amount of kit.


* They were to a standard - A selected 8 mile route and carrying the same weight as an Official CFT.

Not sure the second one was widely true - it may have been at your unit. CFT was always a group exercise, so it could only have been "best effort" for the PTI, platoon, or whatever. It was also always non-standard because all routes for different places varied, so the Sandhurst CFT wasn't the Brecon CFT which wasn't the Pirbright CFT. Which also makes it a bit useless as an individual test.

Even those CFTs which were "individual tests", such as those at training establishments for courses like PCD, Juniors/Seniors, were "keep up with the pack" tests rather than best effort tests. There were variations of CFT / ACFT which had best effort bits, but it tended to amount to a 2 mile individual push in the last quarter.

I can't speak to the early 90s, but by the early 2000s all CFTs had to be run with an instructor & wagon, which prevented best effort individual tests.
 
Not sure the second one was widely true - it may have been at your unit.

I never said it was widely true - I speak only of experience

so it could only have been "best effort" for the PTI, platoon, or whatever.

I thought that would have been obvious - Best effort for the size of the squad, Team / Sect / Pl. My bad, for not making myself absolutely clear.

It was also always non-standard because all routes for different places varied, so the Sandhurst CFT wasn't the Brecon CFT which wasn't the Pirbright CFT.

Well that applies to every single camp that houses Army Units - So not really sure where you are going with that one. ( Unless the New Model Army congregates at the same place and carries out the same CFT )

Even those CFTs which were "individual tests", such as those at training establishments for courses like PCD, Juniors/Seniors, were "keep up with the pack" tests rather than best effort tests.

Sure - And if you cannot keep up with the pack................... Should we call them '' Keep up with the Instructor '' rather than best effort ? ( I don't really want to get into the **** about factor about keeping up with the Instructor - Get to the back and help the strugglers - get to the front )

However it does highlight my previous point - Especially for the Infantry and career progression. If your best is falling over the line by seconds, then you ain't going on career courses.
 

Sarastro

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
I never said it was widely true - I speak only of experience



I thought that would have been obvious - Best effort for the size of the squad, Team / Sect / Pl. My bad, for not making myself absolutely clear.



Well that applies to every single camp that houses Army Units - So not really sure where you are going with that one. ( Unless the New Model Army congregates at the same place and carries out the same CFT )



Sure - And if you cannot keep up with the pack................... Should we call them '' Keep up with the Instructor '' rather than best effort ? ( I don't really want to get into the **** about factor about keeping up with the Instructor - Get to the back and help the strugglers - get to the front )

However it does highlight my previous point - Especially for the Infantry and career progression. If your best is falling over the line by seconds, then you ain't going on career courses.
Best effort in physical tests in the current Army (and for quite a while) has had a specific meaning that it's an individual best effort, thus the confusion. Otherwise they are a minimum requirement test ("Keep up with the Instructor"), even if that minimum requirement means a really major best effort, as some of them do.

Given that we're talking about individual fitness tests it might confuse to use the terms interchangeably.

So the steeplechase or 2-miler on P Company is best effort, but the 10-miler, log or stretcher race is minimum requirement (be on it at the finish line), but for all of them they are probably giving maximum effort regardless.
 
Otherwise they are a minimum requirement test

Thank you.

If you had read / seen my first fitness post, somewhere pages back, you would have seen that this fitness discussion had all started with me saying the words '' Minimum Standards ''

1. Minimum standards was the Army's responsibility.

2. Personal standards were individuals responsibility.
 
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log or stretcher race is minimum requirement (be on it at the finish line), but for all of them they are probably giving maximum effort regardless.
Not hugely relevant, but brought a happy memory to mind.

I was on a course that involved a log race, and we had a member of the Czech version of SFSG on the course with us. After about a mile of running through the normal undulating terrain, we had a bloke who was trailing about 30 meters off the back of the log.

One of the DS shouted for us to slow down to get him back with the rest of us. Cue Czech bloke half turning his head over his shoulder and shouting (imagine an Ivan Drago / Rocky IV type voice) "F*ck him; he's dead".

DS thought about this for a second and then pulled the trailing bloke off the session. He got RTU a couple of days later.
 

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