New Fast Jets for Canada

You can lead a horse to water.....

It’s a shame for Typhoon but I was under the impression Canada got workshare on the F-35 so are already making money from it?

That’s your payback on the project, not the IP.
There's no guaranties that will continue after we are locked in. If there were, then they would be willing to put it in writing, which they're not. And all the other bidders (including Airbus) are prepared to provide ITBs and to put it in writing.

"Trust me" just doesn't cut it when you are talking about this much money.
 
An additional $800 million will be spent on keeping Canada's F-18 up to date in service before they are finally replaced. The last Canadian F-18 is expected to go out of service in 2032.
Federal government to spend hundreds of millions more to keep CF-18s fighting fit
Royal Canadian Air Force commander Lt.-Gen. Al Meinzinger estimated the added cost will be around $800 million, which is on top of the $3 billion the government has already set aside to extend the lives of the CF-18s and purchase 18 secondhand fighter jets from Australia.

"Canada has a history of upgrading their fighter aircraft," Meinzinger said in a recent interview with The Canadian Press. "It's a consequence of the fact that over time, threats ... advance as technology advances."

Thirty-six out of the air force's 76 CF-18s and 18 soon-to-be-delivered secondhand Australian F-18s will receive the full suite of upgrades.
Canada is apparently working with the US Marines on this, as they are also extending the life of their own F-18s and so they will be exchanging information on the best way to do that.
The U.S. Marines are looking at keeping their F-18s — upon which the CF-18 is based — in the air until the 2030s, and Meinzinger said the two forces are working together to identify the best ways to do that.

"We've made it a priority and we're moving as fast as we can to get it delivered," he said. "Obviously our intent is always to ensure that we're making the investments such that we believe that we've got at least parity against the threats that we would face."
 
There's no guaranties that will continue after we are locked in. If there were, then they would be willing to put it in writing, which they're not. And all the other bidders (including Airbus) are prepared to provide ITBs and to put it in writing.

"Trust me" just doesn't cut it when you are talking about this much money.
I don’t know anything about the F-35 and workshare, but I suppose LM don’t want to make any guarantees that may constrain them later?

Some of the Saudi Typhoons couldn’t be repaired due to Germany’s stance on their incursion into Yemen and they were sub components to UK workshare which didn’t have the same stance.
 
I don’t know anything about the F-35 and workshare, but I suppose LM don’t want to make any guarantees that may constrain them later? (...)
In the case of the F-35 It has to do with the way the US has structured the project. As a buyer you have to deal through the US government on their terms. It's different from normal fighter sales which were typically negotiated as commercial contracts.

The UK is dealing on different terms than other countries, as it is the #2 partner and holds technology rights. Canada is only allowed to participate as subcontractors to subcontractors, and those subcontracts can be revoked at any time. The concern is that someone in the US government (not naming any names here) might decide that they would rather have the work done in the US once Canada is committed, and there's nothing Canada could do about it. The US could also decide that all maintenance work must be done in the US, and again there's nothing Canada could do about it.

LM has been making "assurances", but only non-binding ones. So, Canada has been asking for it in writing, and this is where the dispute has been.

All other manufacturers have been willing to put their promises in writing.
 
Far out, you would think America would give Canada a bit of slack being as though they are Allies and the Aircraft Canada fly also help to assist the defence of the US.

This was all going on before Trump though was it not?
 
The deadline for submission of proposals for new jet fighters has been extended from the end of March to the end of June "at the request of industry".
On February 24, 2020, at the request of industry, the Government of Canada granted a 3-month extension to the deadline for preliminary responses to the Request for Proposals. Initially set for March 30, 2020, the deadline has been extended until June 30, 2020. There is still much work to be done in this complex process.
Various news sources have published the story, but none seem to have any new information yet beyond the brief paragraph which has been added to the government's own project web page, so I have just posted the canonical source of this information above.
 

Mufulira

Old-Salt
This very morning the 3 month extension on new and exciting fast jets was announced the final outcome will probably be f35 after all there was an initial funding for it in development stage and promises for additional work before final selection. With all the sunk costs already incurred hy would final choice be anything but F35 ? This is from a government that cannot make a decision over speedy replacement for the Browning High Power after near 70 some service years. Do these Civil Serpents ever talk to other users of Glocks, Berettas,?? Staggering inefficiency
 
It's Canada. They are half French.
That's all you need to know.
 

chimera

LE
Moderator
This very morning the 3 month extension on new and exciting fast jets was announced the final outcome will probably be f35 after all there was an initial funding for it in development stage and promises for additional work before final selection. With all the sunk costs already incurred hy would final choice be anything but F35 ?
There were two reasons for running a competitive bid process. One was that after Harper ended up with egg all over his face after the original project rigging scandal (as reported by the Auditor General) and the other procurement scandals (SAR aircraft, ASW helicopters) he cancelled buying any new jets at all as he found the whole thing simply too much of a political hot potato, and that's where things stood at the time of the 2015 election. The Liberals proposed to get the procurement back on the rails by handing it off to the normal competitive bidding process. This would take the decision out of the hands of the politicians who would then be limited to rubber stamp whatever the procurement commission recommended. This is the same process as was used to select the T-26 frigate. The acquisition time line for having jets in service was the same as the Conservatives had planned on with an untendered bid before cancelling the whole thing.

The other point of the competition was to squeeze the best possible terms out of the supplier and get it in a written contract rather than vague hand-wavy "assurances". Unlike the UK who are a top tier development partner, Canada had very little leverage. LM were screwing us over on things like the modifications required to be able to operate effectively in the Arctic and the US DoD were screwing us over on things like the ability to maintain our own planes or use them how we saw fit.

The main point though was to get a written contract on how much things would cost, what was included in the purchase, and when they would be delivered. On the original trajectory we got none of that, which was why it blew up in the government's face, following which Harper wanted nothing to do with it.

I don't have any problems with running a competitive evaluation for buying new jets, considering they are a purchase that we will have to live with for decades. The problem at present is that the government have bent over backwards so far to accommodate LM's demands that other serious bidders are being driven away.

This is from a government that cannot make a decision over speedy replacement for the Browning High Power after near 70 some service years. Do these Civil Serpents ever talk to other users of Glocks, Berettas,?? Staggering inefficiency
The problem is that Diemaco had a contract which said that if they maintained a production plant in Canada to replace Canadian Arsenals Limited we would buy all our small arms from them. The Canadian government would pick out the small arms they wanted to use, negotiate a licence from the supplier, and then sub-license Diemaco to produce them. This is what happened with the AR-15 and other weapons.

Then Colt were allowed to buy them. That was fine until it came time to buy new pistols. The Armed Forces don't want Colt pistols, as they think they are crap (most other buyers who look beyond the brand name seem to think the same). No other pistol manufacturer has been willing to license their design to Diemaco, as they would effectively be licensing their patents and technology to their competitor Colt.

Purchasing a few thousand Glocks similar to those the UK bought would be a simple solution to the problem, but the above commercial considerations have to be gotten out of the way somehow.
 
replacement for the Browning High Power after near 70 some service years. Do these Civil Serpents ever talk to other users of Glocks, Berettas,?? Staggering inefficiency
philistines..... the High Power has been in service for over 70 years because it is perfection.
 

Mufulira

Old-Salt
True, the High Power is a fine pistol haven't heard much about it failing in service. Our local county mounties all went over to Glocks and the Sr Police use Sigs 40 calibre and have had a decade to report on any misgivings. Sigs are expensive CAD 1200 + but well made. Shooting performance is good and armourers report very few tossed into repair basket at end of shooting days. Ask your own people who carry these around as a source of informed advice! My personal Browning has never failed except for cruddy reload ammo when it smoke-stacked occasionally.
 
True, the High Power is a fine pistol haven't heard much about it failing in service. Our local county mounties all went over to Glocks and the Sr Police use Sigs 40 calibre and have had a decade to report on any misgivings. Sigs are expensive CAD 1200 + but well made. Shooting performance is good and armourers report very few tossed into repair basket at end of shooting days. Ask your own people who carry these around as a source of informed advice! My personal Browning has never failed except for cruddy reload ammo when it smoke-stacked occasionally.
I've shot both the MK1 and 2 , nowt wrong and did as it said on the tin.
 
I don't have any problems with running a competitive evaluation for buying new jets, considering they are a purchase that we will have to live with for decades. The problem at present is that the government have bent over backwards so far to accommodate LM's demands that other serious bidders are being driven away.
It’ll be decades Canada before makes its mind up what it wants. If...
Purchasing a few thousand Glocks similar to those the UK bought would be a simple solution to the problem, but the above commercial considerations have to be gotten out of the way somehow.
...its knickers are in that much of a twist over buying a few bloody pistols.
 
It’ll be decades Canada before makes its mind up what it wants. If...


...its knickers are in that much of a twist over buying a few bloody pistols.
The issue isn't knowing what we want, that's all written down in specifications and sent to vendors. The question is how much are we willing to compromise on what we want in order to accept what's actually available.
 
In comparison to a large number of other countries it does seem be to taking Canada significantly longer to decide that...as in say the case of the F-35.

But then Canadian politics is I suppose a complicated affair.
 
True, the High Power is a fine pistol haven't heard much about it failing in service. Our local county mounties all went over to Glocks and the Sr Police use Sigs 40 calibre and have had a decade to report on any misgivings. Sigs are expensive CAD 1200 + but well made. Shooting performance is good and armourers report very few tossed into repair basket at end of shooting days. Ask your own people who carry these around as a source of informed advice! My personal Browning has never failed except for cruddy reload ammo when it smoke-stacked occasionally.
SIG and Glock is the new must have super cool sexy.
their only ‘advantage’ Over the tough as nuts HiPower is its harder for a village idiot to ND one.
 
In comparison to a large number of other countries it does seem be to taking Canada significantly longer to decide that...as in say the case of the F-35.

But then Canadian politics is I suppose a complicated affair.
The apparent procrastination in the timing of actually bringing planes into service isn't because of a reluctance to pick the F-35. The delays were mainly because of the original decision to pick the F-35 back in the early 2010s, before the government of the day back-pedalled on it. The schedule for replacement of the F-18s was constructed entirely around the most favourable schedule for the F-35.

When F-35 development faced repeated lengthy delays with no resolution in sight however, the government were forced into contracting for several series of major upgrades to be done to the F-18 by an aerospace contractor in Montreal. Australia had their F-18s receive some of the same upgrades in Canada by the way, and they also bought some newer model F-18s to supplement the existing fleet (Canada was going to do the same, but then got into a pissing match with Boeing over other critical issues).

The much delayed F-35 development, combined with the upgrades to the F-18s, reset the replacement schedule to the mid 2020s, again to present the most favourable case for the F-35, as that was when it was scheduled to be in peak production and so offer the lowest price.

Officially though, Harper refused to make a final decision as he found the whole subject just too politically unpalatable. This was especially the case after LM had made him look like a complete muppet to the public by feeding him deliberately misleading information on costs when he personally intervened to try to sort things out.

This was the situation and the timeline the current government inherited when they came to power at the end of 2015. By that point the timing was fixed by factors resulting from previous decisions, and what was left to them was to provide a decision process that would operate within that timeline while meeting the legal requirements as laid down in the Auditor General's Report.

If instead of making everything try to fit what was most convenient for the F-35, we had instead simply picked from amongst what was actually ready for full service in the mid 20-teens, we would probably right now be just finishing off the final delivery of new planes and the retirement of the old ones right now, and there is a good chance that we would be flying Typhoons right now.

Yes we absolutely could have made a decision in say 2012 or 2014, but that decision would have had to be to not buy the F-35 and to buy something else. It was the insistence that the round peg of buying new fighters had to be pounded into the square hole called the F-35 that led to we are where we are today.
 
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