New Dutch police pistol requirements

Discussion in 'Shooting, Hunting and Fishing' started by stoatman, May 8, 2009.

Welcome to the Army Rumour Service, ARRSE

The UK's largest and busiest UNofficial military website.

The heart of the site is the forum area, including:

  1. After 20 or 30 years of running around with the ridiculous and resoundingly pants Walther P5, the Dutch police have just announced the requirements for their new police pistol. I unfortunately don't have the article in front of me, but off the top of my head:

    -- only permissible controls are trigger, magazine catch and hold open/slide release
    -- may not have a safety catch
    -- must be able to fire with the magazine removed
    -- the portion of the trigger against which the finger rests during shooting may not consist of multiple parts
    -- magazine capacity at least 15 rounds
    -- trigger pressure must be the same from shot to shot, and the lighter the better
    -- there must be at least 3 different sizes of grip or grip inserts available
    -- the magazine catch must be accessible from both sides, or be able to be switched for left-handers
    -- the slide release/hold open must be accessible from both sides
    -- each weapon must contain an RFID chip containing the weapons details
    -- calibre 9 x 19 mm
    -- picatinny rail on the frame

    I hope by this point that everybody has spotted the obvious: there is no off-the-shelf pistol on the market today, as far as I'm aware, that fulfils this requirement -- all the main contenders (Glock 17, Walther P 99 series, Sig Sauer pistols, Smith & Wesson M&P9) fail on at least one count. The double sided slide release is a nontrivial mechanical adaption of all of these, in particular.

    And the bastards want 42,000 of the things by the end of next year!

    It's as if they had the exclusion of particular models in mind when writing the stranger parts of the requirement, with the result that they are going to have to get a custom run of pistols made for them. Trebles all round for the company that gets the contract!
  2. I never quite understood why the Cloggie Old Bill didn't hand out the H & K VP70 to all their fellas way back then (around 1974). For some obscure reason, it was only the plain-clothes geezers who got them. They seem to want to carry on the tradition of demanding bizarre specs.

    I also find these two a bit iffy:

    -- the magazine catch must be accessible from both sides, or be able to be switched for left-handers
    -- the slide release/hold open must be accessible from both sides

    I'm left-handed and I've never had any difficulties with these on any pistol I've ever fired. Even the dekocking lever on the SIG Sauer and others is no problem. And offhand, I can't think of any pistol that fulfills all the specs. This could be interesting, though.

  3. maguire

    maguire LE Book Reviewer

    why dont they want a safety? (and seem to have ruled out a trigger safety also?)
  4. Because they don't want undertrained police men and women from failing to be able to fire their weapon if they need it because they forget the safety catch.

    Frankly I prefer a double action 1st shot and then single after that to everything else and don't like safety catches. They use the P5 in double action/single action mode anyway, so I don't quite understand why the requirement is for consistent trigger pulls which rather limits them to DAO or one of the striker fired so-called safe actions.

  5. Someone in procurement really doesn't like Glocks, which on a personal level I can relate to, but for a mass procurement scheme it is plain nuts.

    "Fük jse economic crisis we vil order 42,000 custom pistols vor our policie, yesh!" :headbang:
  6. What they need is a 15 rd revolver :D

    I always liked a safety catch on a pistol and found nothing wrong carrying the browning (with an extended safety catch), one up the spout safety applied.
  7. Sorted:


    Ambidex, 30 shots, no safety :D
  8. I think that someone in procurement doesn't like them because the army and air force have them...
  9. Bit awkward in a shoulder holster :D
  10. Bit out of touch as far as current pistols go living between the English Channel and the Irish Sea..... :X
  11. Here is my prediction, and frankly it seems to be about the only way to do it without spending an absolute fortune:

    -- Start with the current production Walther P99DAO.
    -- put the original trigger without the glock-type part in it.
    -- modify the frame for the ambidextrous slide release (this is the expensive bit)

    And hopefully that is it.

    Oh, one requirement I forgot -- the underside of frame has to have a picatinny rail, so Walther will also have to convince them that their weaver rail is the same deal, but given that they are going to have to do a special run of frames anyway for the ambidextrous slide release it would be trivial enough to make the weaver to picatinny transition at the same time.
  12. CZ 85/B and remove the safety?

    CZ 85
  13. Alsacien

    Alsacien LE Moderator

    Smith and Wesson M&P?
  14. No, that's worse -- remove safety, ambidextrous slide release, extend frame, put rail on frame, provide 3 sizes of frame, make double action only.
  15. Physically, that's pretty much it (it even has an ambidextrous slide stop, which I didn't know until just now), although they would have to delete the sear deactivation lever.

    But, politically? A European police force being armed with an American side arm? And would the State Department grant the export licence?