New armoured vehicles

#1
New British Army armoured vehicles

I noticed about half way down the page that the British Army are introducing something called the Buffalo. The picture reminded me of a certain vehicle that we had back in the 80's in SA & SWA. The Buffel (Afrikaans for Buffalo) idea spawned a whole genre of vehicles, with the Casspir becoming one of the most iconic. It was made famous during our times hunting those pesky SWAPO insurgents in the north of SWA and southern Angola.

I have felt for a long time that the British Army is some 25 years behind when it comes to armoured vehicles with mine protection. We have been in Iraq and Afghanistan for quite a few years now, and the number of lives that might have been saved if they had had Casspirs would have, in my opinion, been considerable. Whilst they were vulnerable to RPG's (as are snatch's), at least they can take a boosted anti-tank mine. The vehicles would suffer considerable damage and all the guys got were cuts, bruises and the occasional broken limb.

We South Africans developed so much amazing military kit and COIN doctrine. I would love to see the FireForce concept used in Afghanistan. I would also like to see a lot more of the way we used to operate brought into the British Army, a lot less red tape and H&S crap, more improvise, adapt and overcome.

Jan
 
#2
I agree !

However, wasn't it the Rhodesians who paved the way ? Inc. Fireforce concept ? Aloutte iii's - K cars & G cars, Paras and C47's ?
 
#3
Does anyone have public images of these new variants? I have googled, but the 'snatch' that appears is a little less well armoured than the military version! I am amazed how quickly this new breed of vehicle has been developed and introduced (perhaps a fair indicator of how long we will be in the sandy places) especially compared to the change over to MAN 4 tonners etc.

I have seen the Panther and the Jackal, but the Husky? Snatch Vixen?

All must be a welcome support out there I am sure

Onfire
 
#5
Nuts_McAuliff said:
Does this spending mean the end of FRES?

Nuts
No, in theory all these new vehicles are UOR so are funded from CPF. FRES isnt the same.
 
#6
onfire said:
Does anyone have public images of these new variants? I have googled, but the 'snatch' that appears is a little less well armoured than the military version! I am amazed how quickly this new breed of vehicle has been developed and introduced (perhaps a fair indicator of how long we will be in the sandy places) especially compared to the change over to MAN 4 tonners etc.

I have seen the Panther and the Jackal, but the Husky? Snatch Vixen?

All must be a welcome support out there I am sure

Onfire
I have pics of VIXEN but will wait till i see one in the public domain. TSV should be fielded by HERRICK 11. MAN dont make 4tonners, they are 6t.
 
#7
Hello Jan_van_Riebeek,

I would agree that the British army neglected protected mobility in recent years but I don't agree about the army being so far behind on mine protection.
It has been incorporated into British military vehicles pretty much since the mine became a threat in the Great War.
Here are a few examples of vehicles with "V" shaped hulls;

Saracen:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/Saracen-latrun-1.jpg

Saxon:

http://www.khakicorpsimports.com/vehicles/saxon-in-3.jpg

Challenger 1:

http://picasaweb.google.com/martong01/Bovington#5226828687655406930

Chieftain:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2021/2514037842_f7b83e5419_o.jpg

The extreme deep "V" hulls characteristic of southern African vehicles are the result of the very specific circumstances in which they were developed.
The Rhodesians based mine protected vehicles on whatever chassis they had available.
As there are practical limits to the weight these vehicles could endure,simply adding lots of armour was not an option.
The high,deep "V" design allowed reasonable protection without excessive weight.

This approach has it's drawbacks however.

The higher the vehicle's centre of mass the wider it must be to avoid toppling over,a deep "V" hull raises the vehicle floor substantially.
A vehicle wide enough to use on the veldt may be too wide for the back streets of Europe.

While height gives good mine protection,it also creates a high profile which is an easy target for enemy anti armour systems.
A design intended to counter poorly equipped insurgents may be more vulnerable against a well equipped army.

The more modest shaping of the vehicle hulls in the pictures above is the result of them being more balanced designs intended to counter a wider range of threats in closer terrain.


tangosix.
 
#8
CH512O said:
onfire said:
Does anyone have public images of these new variants? I have googled, but the 'snatch' that appears is a little less well armoured than the military version! I am amazed how quickly this new breed of vehicle has been developed and introduced (perhaps a fair indicator of how long we will be in the sandy places) especially compared to the change over to MAN 4 tonners etc.

I have seen the Panther and the Jackal, but the Husky? Snatch Vixen?

All must be a welcome support out there I am sure

Onfire
I have pics of VIXEN but will wait till i see one in the public domain. TSV should be fielded by HERRICK 11. MAN dont make 4tonners, they are 6t.
VIXEN is in the public domain so no problems with posting pics.
 
#10
I agree, too many soldiers have past from mines and that would keep on occuring without the adequite vehicles, the thing with IED's is they take out the whole freeking vehicle including the crew and are unavoidable, wereas RPG are easier to dodge, resist etc.

Good to see the gov putting money into the safety of soldiers for once.
 
#11
However, wasn't it the Rhodesians who paved the way ? Inc. Fireforce concept ? Aloutte iii's - K cars & G cars, Paras and C47's
Yes, I didnt mean to infer that we started fireforce, the Rhodies came up with that and worked the concept wonderfully.

The extreme deep "V" hulls characteristic of southern African vehicles are the result of the very specific circumstances in which they were developed. While height gives good mine protection,it also creates a high profile which is an easy target for enemy anti armour systems.
A design intended to counter poorly equipped insurgents may be more vulnerable against a well equipped army.
I agree entirely, fighting SWAPO cadres who run and need to be tracked for hundreds of km's is very different to fighting the talis. In the 9 day war at the brink of SWA independance, the SWAPO cadres stood and fought, and although they suffered terrible casualties (and rightfully so the little lying bar-stewards), they also inflicted a lot of casualties. This was mainly due to RPG7's penetrating the crew cab. I dont believe there were many deaths, but a lot of amputations etc.

The cab did stand very high, raising the profile. This makes it a greater target for RPG's. I am also not sure how it would stand up to a shaped charge. Perhaps they could be modified with side armour (like the warriors and Mastiffs have).

The real crux of my post was that I feel that a lot of lessons (often bloody ones) that we Southern African's learnt during the Bush War could be used to help in (particularly) Afghanistan. I am not a staff officer and have no impact on doctrine, however I do wonder how aware these people are of what happened back home. Militarily we didnt lose, politically we were let down. If we used similar tactics AND had the political will, we should be able to sort Afghan out.

Just my 2 cents that is :)

Jan
 
#12
Jan_van_Riebeek said:
New British Army armoured vehicles

I noticed about half way down the page that the British Army are introducing something called the Buffalo. The picture reminded me of a certain vehicle that we had back in the 80's in SA & SWA. The Buffel (Afrikaans for Buffalo) idea spawned a whole genre of vehicles, with the Casspir becoming one of the most iconic. It was made famous during our times hunting those pesky SWAPO insurgents in the north of SWA and southern Angola.
(my bold)

Thought you might find this interesting...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_(mine_protected_vehicle)
 
D

Deleted 20555

Guest
#13
Different time, different war and different opponents - Brits from what I've seen and heard from relatives now serving in the BA certainly do need the equivalent of the old Casspir, Kwevoel and Rinkhals.

Would have loved to see how my old unit 61 Mech would have done in Afghanistan - 1/3 the size of a MEU with double the firepower. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24th_Marine_Expeditionary_Unit
 
#14
Just out of interest, what type of bombs/mines/IEDs did these african insurgents tend to use? anything like EFPs?
 
#15
Bradstyley said:
Just out of interest, what type of bombs/mines/IEDs did these african insurgents tend to use? anything like EFPs?
the favourite one in my TAOR was the TM/N 46 Russian landmine.
 
D

Deleted 20555

Guest
#16
Normally they would be a standard TM46 A/T mine or even in some cases old British WW2 A/T mines - these were not effective vs the mine protected vehicles so they would boost them with a slab of explosive called a a cheese mine - no heat effect - they looked like big a dutch cheese hence the name. But if you were strapped in you could still walk away from it.

The v shaped hull took all the blast - inside the hull between the outer skin and the passengers was the diesel tank and the water tank which added protection.

To demine roads we used to just drive down them every morning...
 
#17
Double stacked TM's with a booster of whatever they did not want to carry, A few 60 mm mortar bombs or a box of TNT. In Rhodesia that was.


There is also a lot of confusion beewwn the old open toped SA BUFFEL or the new Buffalo (which is like a Casspir )
 
#18
ahhh 61...



I was never in the SADF, I grew up just to late to join it but early enough to want to join it. Nice one Deleted 20555!

Jan vr
 
#19
I read HUSKY comes as a flatbed, ambulance and CP. Would that explain the ambulance and flatbed BUSHMASTERs someone spotted on the M3 the other day?

linky
 

Mongo

LE
Kit Reviewer
#20
Deleted 20555 said:
To demine roads we used to just drive down them every morning...
Simple and effective I guess..

Also an eff-you to the guys that planted the mines, although I guess that it backfired sometimes?
 

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