New Armoured Vehicle for British Army

#2
Seems like a good move. Bet the lads will enjoy the air con too.
 
#4
Septics in these have taken 1000 attacks with nil casualties; IEDs etc.

Sounds like a winner.
 
#5
Machiavellian said:
On Sky News

So whats the general consensus on this new transport? Much better than the Land Rovers? Is 100 over the next 6 months enough?

Not wishing to rain on anyones parade but I think its just a political kneejerk. £26m for 100 vehicles.

The insurgent response is likely to be a pile of very big bombs in culverts etc. Military grade HE is no problem to them, nor is finding enough to fill a 40 foot container if they want a suicide bomb. The other option will be to ask Iran or Syria nicely for some real anti-armour weapons. They certainly have AT-5, probably Kornet as well.

One answer is to fall back on covert vehicles like we did in NI. ( Probably need Iraqi drivers...) Mix in the eagle VCPs etc. Are we forgetting 30 years worth of counter-insurgency lessons in our rush to copy the Septics ? Throwing money at the problem is not the answer. We need to use our brains.
 
#6
I am with you on this one Ts we are far too reliant on FP at the expense of being really manoeuverist and out thinking the enemy. Not sure that NI holds all the answers but certialy need more lateral thought rather than bigger more heavily armoured trucks. Shame we did not go for the Canadian Cougar at least that is a proper LAV and allows full off road manoeuvre. We will be wanting to send Challenger to AFG next!
 
#7
In Basra, warrior is yet to be defeated by an IED. I was in a warrior which was EFP'd and walked away. If it had been a snatch, it would be a different story! So in that respect, an armoured vehicle is a brilliant idea...

HOWever, I'm not quite sure how something that large is going to replace snatch. Surely the idea of having a vehicle like snatch is that it can fit places a warrior can't...
 
#8
Pleased you survived to tell the story. Agree need something that has good mobility - I SAID GOOD MOBILITY incase your ears are still ringing!!
 
#9
rennug said:
Pleased you survived to tell the story. Agree need something that has good mobility - I SAID GOOD MOBILITY incase your ears are still ringing!!
I hear they’ve invented these new flying machines, they call them 'helicopters', I know preposterous, it'll never take off (pun intended :wink:)
 
#10
Look wot the box heads have, the "Dingo"....we sent many happy hours towing them out of ditches...Happy days !
Still we were stuck to wpns in WIMK..and when they open the hatch steam comes out....ah well...an Afghan winter..deep joy..
I think the new kit may be good.......
Don't know about you but IED's dont make me happy!
(And Yes I know the types and versions!) :wink:
 
#11
And what covert vehicles do you think we are going to be able to use? You mix with the traffic in like for like vehicles and they were only used in benign situations. Iraq and Afghanistan are not benign.

Face it - the number of serious attacks on UK troops in Iraq this year alone is the equivilent of many many years worth in NI. The enemy is capable of mounting up to Bn- size attacks. Not quite the same as a few good boys in NI even the lunatics in the border area.

The operational environment is completely different. Remember the no car policy applied to only two counties in NI and the threat of off road IEDs was a lot less than it is now in either country

I agree that TTPs will need to evolve but don't mistake the buying of these vehicles as a "rush to copy the Septics".

It is simply buying an equipment to save lifes that are, at the moment, being lost all too easily with the continued use of equipment, like Snatch (that vehicle designed for NI....) that simply are not up to the job.

edited for mong fingers
 
#12
Well said i-t-c. Still far too many people making the NI comparison - old habits, and pers experience die hard. We need more video clips and personal stories from the front to try to emphasise the point.
 
#13
in_the_cheapseats said:
And what covert vehicles do you think we are going to be able to use? You mix with the traffic in like for like vehicles and they were only used in benign situations. Iraq and Afghanistan are not benign.

Face it - the number of serious attacks on UK troops in Iraq this year alone is the equivilent of many many years worth in NI. The enemy is capable of mounting up to Bn- size attacks. Not quite the same as a few good boys in NI even the lunatics in the border area.
I'm not saying its the same - but I am saying that 100 vehicles at £1/4m each is not the way to go. Thinking caps on. There are enough battered old vans on the streets of Basrah for one or two extra sliding up to Ad Dair not to be noticed - and certainly not targeted by an IED en route. Cover with a heli to counter hostile VCPs if it gets that bad etc etc.
 
#14
I dont see how you can make a supply convoy not look like a supply convoy. While unmarked vehicles may work in Basra I dont see them working very well in afghanistan. Tailban tend to move in larger 30- 50 man groups. Any car marked are unmarked will be viewed as a potential target and ten are twelve all ariveing at same time is going to a dead give away. Your much better off with well armored and armed vehicle in that envirement then with unarmored and unarmed ones.

I see the cougar and uparmored pinzg?? forming a solid team for convoy and cougar being main infantry ground support vehicle (unless they send warriors and challengers) in combat missions. Pinzg will be used as armored supply truck not as infantry carrier its armor seems to be very marginal so I would see cougars carrying troops and pinzg hauling supplys on convoy missions.
 
#15
not sure whether there will be enough Cougar (MASTIFF) to do the supply task - there will be a lot of competing priorities in AFG. It is still going to be a big improvement to what 16 Bde have.
 
#16
Siddar said:
I dont see how you can make a supply convoy not look like a supply convoy.

Make it look like a Chinook ?

While unmarked vehicles may work in Basra I dont see them working very well in afghanistan. .............Your much better off with well armored and armed vehicle in that envirement then with unarmored and unarmed ones.

Published weight of a Cougar is 37,000lb. How much PE do you need to put that 30ft in the air ? How many possible routes are there into any given base ? It does not even need to be a culvert bomb. An anti-armour weapon more sophisticated than an RPG and that beast is in trouble. The US has lost Abrams to RPG strikes on the running gear.

I see the cougar and uparmored pinzg?? forming a solid team for convoy ...........Pinzg will be used as armored supply truck not as infantry carrier its armor seems to be very marginal ......so I would see cougars carrying troops and pinzg hauling supplys on convoy missions.

The Pinzgauer is no-way big enough to make a decent "truck". Its payload is what - a tonne or so ? ....and do you not see a bit of a problem with that line about its armour ? Is it really that much better than a Snatch ? Sorry. History shows that in the armour vs munition war its the munition that wins. We need to get savvy about how we move about, resupply and insert troops.
 
#17
Certainly a different operational situation, a different enemy, different ground etc. Same issues, stay alive, kill the enemy, win the hearts and minds of local population etc. I welcome this piece of kit in that it will allow commanders to deploy in a different way and diversity is the key. For those interested you may like to know that the IRA killed almost twice the number of British soldiers in one year (1972) as Iraqi insurgents have killed over more than three years.

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/64/

This is just one link, how soon we forget.
 
#18
Dave, I agree with your post entirely! It is a shame that certain posts, keep insinuating NI as a doddle to the sand pits. Many younger soldiers just do not have the knowledge about the early years of NI. 102 soldiers KIA in 1 year alone! Just look at the NI vets association site, shocking! The early 70,s were awful! But then again, I would come home on 4 days r&r and return to find the casualty list had grown and not a sniff on the TV. So how could our new boys be aware of these things! The sand pits are becoming awful and my son is just about to be deployed, BUGGER! :x
 
#20
Intelligence and intelligence based operations are what's needed to defeat shaped charges, anti armour weapons and other sophisticated weaponry. However, threat from artillery shells at the side of the road etc. will always remain high and having a vehicle which cannot defeat such threats is not acceptable.

As for the situation in Northern Ireland in the past, I for one have every respect for anyone who served there. I'm sure anyone will agree with me, however the situation in Iraq is also extremely bad.
 

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