Need help on a Redress and its possible abuse

Discussion in 'Military Discipline' started by lancewelljackedoff, Mar 19, 2012.

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  1. Hi Serious first post for a serious dilemma.

    A few months back a soldier in our establishment had good reason to submit a redress about bullying. Without going into the detail of the allegations a fair few witnessed the behaviour of one individual with the rank above Staff Sgt level making life very hard for individual below the rank of Sgt level. It went to the point of insults, over supervision and attempts to set the guy up to fail in given tasks and more!

    This had not been the first time the individual with the rank above Staff Sgt had been pulled up for such behaviour and he has a very long history of it in his past.

    This particular behaviour went on for a few months and the lad tried to get on with it, tried to resolve it via chatting and hoping it would die down. Sadly it did not and got to the point where he had no choice but to complain via the redress system.
    Here is the dilemma!
    When he tried to complain his OC made a number of attempts to get the soldier to drop the complaint and to not make it official. Not by promising to sort out the individual with the rank above Staff Sgt but by threats that he would make life more difficult for the soldier if he made it official. He give the soldier a number of (24 hr soak periods) to reflect if he made it official. Because the soldier stood his ground he was more or less frog marched off the camp and re-located some four hours away from his home.

    The OC went about making threats to some of the named witnesses, for example informing one he could be posted away due the soldier making the complaint, a promise of promotion to another of the witnesses, informing all that he had conducted an internal investigation and that there was no evidence (this was without even speaking to any one named as witnesses once about the alligations made) He was more or less telling us there was no evidence. The OC then took every opportunity to slate the soldier and make up ridiculous reasons for him making the complaint.
    The individual with the rank above Staff Sgt was left alone and allowed to work with all the named witnesses and so far nothing has happened.

    How can this chap get any form of redress when he is being shafted twice. What reason would the OC have to behave like he has towards this soldier under his wing, who has cause to make a illegitimate complaint.
    What is the OC trying to hide? (He is up for promotion soon)

    I feel I need to say something to someone but not sure who I should turn to, plus if I do will I get shafted as well for speaking out.

    Any pointers?
  2. The redress should be made in writing by the original complainant. The OC should either deal with it to the satisfaction of the complainant or pass it to the CO. If he fails to do so, a copy should be sent direct to the CO with a second redress about the behavior of the OC.

    The OP should do no more than encourage the complainant to take the correct action.
  3. Moral courage mucker.

    Sometimes it's the right thing to do precisely because it is hard. I would report it but who to is another matter. Someone older and wiser needs to PM you or comment.
  4. B_AND_T

    B_AND_T LE Book Reviewer

    Values and Standards, One being Moral Courage!
  5. It is all very well to say "moral courage" to the OP but there is very little he can do beyond offer support to the victimised individual and be willing to stand up as a witness if that time comes. A formal complaint by the victim is needed if there is to be any progress.
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  6. [​IMG]
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  7. 1) If the alledged victim hasn't already done so I suggest he make notes & write them up in detail at the earliest opportunity.

    2) If the OC has sat on his hands to preserve his own promotion/MBE he should expect "a short ring in the butts" too.

    3) If a complaint becomes bogged down you'll be suprised how quickly it'll re-emerge if the redress itself is redressed (& it'll pickup the odd casualty on the way) :)

  8. Redress goes straight to the CO who has 28 days to respond. If the complainant is unhappy it goes up a level. In all cases now (IIRC having been out of the post a while) a case worker is assigned by the relevant MoD department. There is also a Complaints Commisioner. the days of complaints being swept under the carpet are gone and any OC/CO who thinks they can stop a valid complaint being heard and dealt with are frankly living in a different time zone. The new system works, use it!
  9. Devex, thanks for the clarity. It still remains that the victim, not the OP, must make the complaint formally. That is the only satisfactory way for it to be dealt with.
  10. The rank above Staff Sergeant is WO2, and the rank below sergeant is Cpl. Hope this helps.
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  11. Get your mate to either contact the units Equality & Diversity Advisor for advice/help or go direct to the Service Complaints Wing at Army HQ in Andover. They will probably tell him the following: If he feels that he has been unfairly treated then he should submit a Formal Service Complaint (JSP 831) to the CO as the OC is implicated in his Complaint, keeping a dated copy in case it gets "lost" in transit, the CO should interview him and attempt to mediate and rectify at that level (its all in the JSP), or pass it up to the next level if he considers it serious enough! The CO HAS to inform the Service Complaints Wing of the complaint (Again JSP) so there is no hiding it. I'm afraid it's down to the indivudual to "man up" and put his complaint on paper, and from my experience, it is not an easy thing to go through, but if he is that concerned about it, he needs to go through with it.

    SO1 SCW - 94391 2022
    SO2 SCW - 94391 7701
    WO1 SCIT - 94391 2997

    Hope this helps

  12. Question for the OP. Is the "victim" now in a different chain of command? If so, there is part of his answer. Use the new Chain of Command to make his formal complaint following Devex and KC advise above.

  13. The case I have knowledge of is slighlty similar to this, so i can go off practical info - The CO will interview complainant as well as the people complained about, individuals get told not to discuss withanyone and not to communicate with the complainant. CO can move complaminant to another Coy/Sqn post for the duration of his "investigation" to prevent any of this happening, and at the end of it, the complainant has to agree that he is happy with the outcome or the CO has to push it up. if it transpires that someone has tried to deal with this "in house" behind the garages, or offer long lingering postings in horrible places, that someone can be in deep poo!! a lot more poo than the original transgression (if proved !) The JSP covers it!!

    none of the lot involved in the Service Complaint i was aware of tried to influence anyone....especially if they said that they havent done anything wrong!! remember....innocent until proven guilty. in the end my complainant got moved and a year later proved his point nby getting promoted, the individual complained about got a Major AGAI but is still serving at the same rank.

  14. Thanks for the advice so far. He made his complaint via the JSP procedures and in writing. Six months ago!! The complaint was about the individual above Staff Sgt level. Sadly this is where it went pair shaped and the OC started to make things difficult for the soldier.

    First the reflection periods this went on for about two weeks, informing the soldier he would be sent away if he made his complaint official. Then once he committed to paper he was sent away and barred from the camp, more or less treated like he was a criminal.

    I know part of the procedure is to separate the two party's but it felt like this was not a consideration for his welfare but more a threat that kept being given if he made the complaint. Nothing happened towards the individual above Staff Sgt level

    The OC then started to work on all the named witnesses, with passing comments about futures and hints on promotions What I found extremely unprofessional was the way the OC was slating the soldier to all at any opportunity, even the Civilians who work there who are also witnesses.
    Yet at no time was anyone ever asked the killer question. Did the individual above Staff Sgt level do any of what was claimed.

    I have already seen an email by the OC claiming he had conducted an internal investigation and claiming there was no evidence to support the complaint! In my opinion and that of the other witnesses, He has lied to the CO!

    What leaves a bitter taste for me is the conduct of the OC. We are all expected to follow values and standards. I have seen soldiers careers torn to bits for a minor mistake or wrong comment in the mess, yet here I have witnessed a soldier openly victimised for making a complaint and the OC is not even hiding the fact!

    Should this conduct be pointed out in any investigation or will it be ignored?

    Even if the service complaints commissioner was to be involved they would not have any sway on the outcome as ultimately the CO as the deciding officer would still have to make the call.
    Would a CO make a more balanced judgement if the SCC were involved?
  15. From the CoC view has the Cpl failed the service test? if so has the CoC AGAId said Cpl or appointed a mentor?

    If Cpl has been AGAId and put on a 3 monthly then obviously the CoC are going about their business correctly.


    Is the SSM/WO2 appointment merely trying to kick start the Cpl into becomming a JNCO? Is the WO2 merely using his past experiences in banter/motivation (however poor). Has the Cpl been interviewd through his CoC ie Tp Sgt/Ldr in order to have the facts recorded?

    It would be interesting to know if the Cpl is an attached arm and which Corps branches are involved?