Nazi Tactics!!???

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by midnight, Dec 16, 2005.

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  1. During the German Army retreat through Italy,a large number of soldiers were being killed by `partisans´.To counter this,it was ordered that,for every soldier wounded ten civilians would be executed.For every soldier killed,fifty civilians were to be shot;Quite often whole villages,were destroyed,and burnt to the ground.News? hardly, but wait.

    Today on CNN;a news crew accompany a U.S. patrol,talking to the inhabitants,hearts and minds etc.Three hours later,three insurgent snipers open up on the patrol.They call up an air strike,in a heavily populated area,and of course hit the wrong building.Result,seventeen killed,all but one,women and children.It was the house,where three hours ago,they were filming, asking what they wanted for the future,what their worries were.

    A U.S.Marine Colonel,then comments;´Of couse we regret civilian casualties,but we will not risk losing any men,if we can use other means´.

    I assume that the old tactic of pin them down,and close in, is too dangerous for `Elite`fighting units.

    As the civilian population,has absolutely no control over the snipers,just as the villagers in Italy,did not;Calling down an air strike on the innocent,in an off chance of killing the snipers,is a form of retaliation,revenge,mindless murder.Yes accidents can happen,but this is not an accident.You can´t send in an airstrike, and not put innocent civilians at risk.

    I don´t remember,after Warren Point, airstrikes on the surrounding villages!

    If the U.S. doesn´t want casualties,and take the deaths of civilians,as a normal consequence,is it not time to leave?I supported the war against Saddam Hussain;But the senseless slaughtering of civilians;Who´s the terrorist now ?

    There is a very fine line between fighting terror,and becoming a terrorist;In this case the lines been jumped over.

    Midnight
     
  2. i totaly agree MN, but this is nothing new is it?

    being trigger happy is easier than training hard i guess........................

    and they wonder why they get no respect.
     
  3. I think it is a little unwise to draw such a close parallel between the deliberate German tactic of reprisals against the Italian civilian population in the Second World War, and the incident in Iraq which you cited, where I doubt that the American intention was to deliberately kill Iraqi civilians - another such comparison along those lines is the bombing of Dresden and the Holocaust (from a soliphistic viewpoint, the intention is irrelevant as both episodes resulted in civilian deaths).

    Wouldn't the airstrikes you allude to in relation to Warren Point have actually entailed the RAF/AAC strafing into the Republic of Ireland? (as interesting a scenario as that admittedly would have been...)
     
  4. 307

    307 War Hero

    Didnt you know, M4s dont have the stopping power so Uncle Sams issuing 1 JDAM per soldier per patrol.
     
  5. Same tactics (if you can call them that) which they used in Vietnam, they obviously haven`t learnt from past experiences. They are never going to win over the population with that method. :roll:
     
  6. Agree, I don't belive that the Americans intentionally killed civilians. They simply didn't care about it.

    Probably the goal was to damage German economical potential and infrastructure. Possible civilian victims were not planned, they simply hadn't been taken into account.

    Do you mean that significant part of Jewish victims were not intentionally killed? It is one step from this point to the Holocaust denial.
     
  7. If they got close enough to the enemy,even U.S.Marines could hit them with their M4s,(shooting or clubbing,take your pick);1000lb.bombs in populated areas is not a good way to bring democracy,and freedom.

    Self respect is (was?),a big part of soldiering.Watching news stories like this,I´m not surprised that many desert;And it can be no surprise that so many soldiers have been killed.Kill my wife and child,and I´m sure I´m not going to fly the Red White and Blue,I´d probably start cleaning my A.K.

    Midnight
     
  8. Piece from this weeks Economist on this issue....


     
  9. RTFQ

    RTFQ RIP

    There's only one population they need to win over, and they only need to do that on the balance of every four years or so. After that, they need to 'win over' maybe one or two governments in the region, like Iran and Syria. It's not about hearts and minds, it's about full-spectrum conflict and areas of control. Unlike with us in NI, the yanks won't have to live next to whatever form (or forms) Iraq becomes. It's about warning the ME to behave, maintaining (or gaining) some control over the VITAL strategic resource of oil and doing both while winning elections at home. In the face of Realpolitik, the Iraqi civilian isn't worth much and the truth is, so long as those first two objectives are achieved, we won't mourn dead iraqis for long either.
     
  10. ....................................................................................................................................

    It must be impossible to drop a 1000lb bomb in a housing estate,and not have civpop casualties.As for Dresden,the aim was to destroy it,no hearts and minds intended or alluded to.As for the Holocaust being accidental..................Don´t visit Austria!


    This is the point I´m making;If they wanted to,there would not have been much anybody could have done, to stop 2PARA,mounting up,and shooting and murdering the surrounding civpop.They wouldn´t have needed Crabair,or AAC;They knew the risks and accepted them;Revenge didn´t come into it.Of course it would have started a never ending war,this is what will happen in Iraq,if these so called Tactics continue.

    Midnight
     
  11. I'll answer your last question first Sergey. Being neither a neo-fascist nor a Holocaust denier, I did not "mean that significant part of Jewish victims were not intentionally killed". What I did mean was that from a soliphistic [sic]* view there is a direct comparison between the civilian deaths at Dresden and the murder of Jews during the Holocaust....aw hell, I made the mistake of trying to be too clever; what I should have said is that if one were an adherent of moral relativism (which I am not, no more than I am a solipsist), then one could be of the above view. A more immediate comparison is how many in the United States refer to Camp Delta at Guantanomo Bay as 'America's Gulag', which besides being a gross exaggeration is also an unpardonable insult to the millions who died in the gulag system (including quite a number of your Polish compatriots Sergey).

    I agree with your assertion that there is a certain level of manifest indifference towards Iraqi civilian casualties among American forces, but I still would not go as far as to describe them as 'Nazi tactics'.

    *solipsistic - 'to be of the view that the self is all that can be known to exist'
     

  12. That's a good point but the end result is the same, innocent people dead and the civpop alienated. Doesn't matter if your home and loved ones were atomised deliberately or by an attitude of better 10 dead innocent iraqis than 1 of our boys.
     
  13. "Each division of 19,000 soldiers had only two IO officers."

    Interesting quote from the long article. So All that money spent on some of the finest tehnical means of gathering data in th history of the World is going to cascade onto the shoulders of just 2 (TWO) IO's. Gives you a hint on a couple of aspects of modern Septic Warfare. Who tells them where the enemy is. How much they care about finding the enemy.

    After All. With a big enough stick you don't have too look too hard to find the enemy. Just keep bashing about in the dark until the noises stop.
     
  14. "Changing an army's approach takes time. The warrior spirit, as Americans call their propensity for macho soldiering, or killing people, is deep in their military culture. In Afghanistan's violent Helmand province, an American special-forces captain—with broad experience of counter-insurgency—analysed his furtive Taliban enemies thus: “They're cowards. Why don't they step up and fight like men?” Apparently, he had not considered how he might fight if he had no armour, no radio, an ancient rifle and the sure knowledge that if he fought like a man, he would be obliterated in minutes."

    Didn't a senior Septic whinge like this in 1967? or was it 68? or 69?

    Thick c**ts
     
  15. Brilliant answer! I think that political solipsism is a very dangerous phenomenon. However, I must admitt that I am not free from solipsistical tendentions myself and probably neverone is. In this context I would be happy if my (no doubt amateurish) thoughts would be helpful there.

    Regards!