Nazi Germany & Tojo

Discussion in 'Military History and Militaria' started by Krazy_Ivan, Oct 20, 2011.

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  1. I'm in the middle of reading a trilogy of books by John Birmingham, they're sort of a more modern version of 'The Philidelphia Experiment'. Anyway the books hypothesize a multinational (USA, UK, France, Australia & Japan) fleet providing security for a scientific experiment who inadvertantly get thrown back in time to the pacific in 1942, just prior to the Battle for Midway. Now the books themselves are a nice easy read but nothing to get to excited about, but they did set me thinking......

    Had the Axis won WWII and given Nazi Germany's hang-ups about the perfection of the teutonic, Aryan, master race of supermen & their outlook on what they saw as sub-human asians. How would their post-war relationship with Imperial Japan have panned out? Would we have had a Nazi version of 'Peace in our time' or would the Axis have fragmented and started knocking lumps out of each other?

    Ladies & Gents, what are your thoughts?
     
  2. The key weakness of both the Germans and Japanese in WW2 was overstretch. Even if the Japanese had won Midway the sheer size of the American industrial base matched with its massive natural resources and population would have meant that anything less than a full invasion and occupation wouldn't remove them as a world power and potential threat to the Axis.
    Even if by some mcguffin the Western Allies made peace/surrendered the overstretch would have still been there with the Japanese spread thin in China and their new Pacific conquests, which if India was included would be massive with a huge hostile population to control. The Germans would also be struggling to enforce their rule in the USSR, Eastern Europe and the Middle East.
    Personally I believe they would be both simply too busy policing what they had already grabbed to start going at each other, especially with a still powerful USA/Canada led Americas Bloc posing a serious threat to them.
     
  3. My thoughts are that I knew Tojo's great grandson, he was ex US forces, married a German girl and moved to Heidelberg. Is that ironic?

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  4. I'll play:

    Assuming that the Axis has achieved total victory and the world is divided by two empires, Hitler had demonstrated often enough that he believed treaties to be only worth anything while they suited his ends and there had been enough diplomatic gaffs about the sub-human "yellow" races, for the Japanese to know that at some stage Hitler would turn on them.

    I'd suggest that in this notional two-empire world, the flash-point would be the Russo-Chinese border region.

    The trouble is, to reach this point, both would have to had completely subdued their respective conquests. By the time that came about (if it ever), both Hitler and Tojo would have been long dead and the inevitable costs involved would have lead to a collapse in both empires.

    So in short: It would never come to it.
     
  5. Hitler would soon realise that a small population of white aryans were totally insufficient to manage and rule a vast global empire by force (unless they were Brits of course....), and hence there'd have to be some sort of pragmatic recognition of ethnicity. Given that neither Hitler nor most of the Nazi hierarchy were actually blond nordic aryans, i imagine they'd keep the master race idea as a sort of "aspiration"...
     
  6. I'm not so sure. Hitler was definately on the downward slope mentally, and even without the July Plot bombing which really sent him off the deep end, it would have been interesting to see how much longer he would have been able to stay on as an effective Fuhrer before he was relegated to puppet status with his underlings slaughtering each other to take over as boss.
     
  7. If the amount and variety of people who whole heartedly joined in with the master race is noted then I don't think he would have been reliant on a "small population of white aryans" but rather he would have had most of the northern europeans working for him with probably only "pure" Germans as a sort of uber civil servant in charge.

    As for the USA still being around, not if the Nazis had got the A bomb first perhaps?
     
  8. From the limited amount I've read about the Nazi's atomic programme, even if they managed a peace with the Western Allies in say 1943, the war in the USSR and occupation of Eastern Europe was still draining far too much of Germany's manpower and very limited resources for them to have had a programme anywhere near the scale or investment of the Manhatten Project. The Americans would have still got the A-bomb first and it would have probably ended up something akin to Fatherland with their being a Cold War between the two.
     
  9. Hmmm, that's a point, but who would have come forth as the real power while Der Fuhrer remained as figurehead.
    Goering, Borman or Himmler? If the latter then the anti-ayran ethos would have been even further implanted and future conflict assured, the first two were a bit more pragmatic, and Goering really less of a man than he used to be.
    Yet Germany would have had a technological step ahead and ended up in a race with the US.
    Even had the Axis won the US would still have provided a third block, isolated but again with a technological advantage over the others perhaps as Germany tended to be wasteful in her talents and resources. S. America could have provided a flashpoint with countries like Argentina and Chile german friendly and Central America more inclined to the US.
    In fact as I type this I am envisaging a similar three block scenario to Orwell's 1984 with flashpoints at points of contact.
     
  10. I've often wondered about how the Nazis and the Japs would have got on in close proximity.

    If you think the average Ukranian is an unacceptable Untermench then sitting down to dinner with a bunch of raw fish eating Samurai walts is going to be a bit of a stretch.

    Russia was a huge, wild and uncivilised place suffering horribly under a hated tyrant when he invaded her, and if the Germans had gone in as liberators rather than a Rentokill extermination crew he would have got on a lot better.

    My alternative history plot would be that having liberated/colonised Russia Hitler leaves the Far East to the Japs but in the cause of furthering his anti-capitalist socialism he whips up, trains and equips as many divisions of Siberians as he can find and has a pop at Canada and the US via Alaska.

    But whoever got the keys to the sunshine bus first would have won, regardless, and if it was a book I'd conclude it with an A bomb on Berlin right above his bedside locker.
     
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  11. It should be remembered that far from just pure blood Germanic fighting fo the Nazi, the SS recruited tens of thousands of eastern Europeans to either fight for them and/or help eliminate the jews/gypsy/ etc. The Nazis had the numbers to make life difficult.
     
  12. It would be interesting to have seen just how far the Germans were looking to go with racial purity. The impression I have is that they were only really looking to purge Europe of all undesireables, the fact that it took until early 1942 for the Nazis to finally decide to exterminate the Jews systematically having been contemplating explusion to Madagascar and other crazy schemes.
    Not sure that even if they had had the men and material available, if they would have had the will to have started gassing Blacks and Arabs if they had pushed into the Middle East and Africa. With such 'sub-humans' on their new doorstep going after the Japanese would have been some way off.
     
  13. Mr D - what a good point. I think in the common Brit folk memory WW2 was 'against the Germans' and the Jap thing is seen as a seperate, and less threatening, affair.

    Much to the justifiable bitterness of those Brits who fought them, but we were never going to be invaded by the Nips so it seems to take a back seat and Hitler and Tojo are seen as different bogey men.

    Certainly in my mind I don't subconciously combine the two.

    But I bet after the war German diplomats were under strict orders noot to shake hands with their Former allies in public, or even appear in the same photograph.

    The Krauts would have been getting enough stick over their treatment of the Jews and they certainly wouldn't want to row in on the Jap POW outrage as well.

    But behind closed doors, especially in the 50s after a few bottles of Saki?

    Who knows? Hadn't thought of it before.

    One question to the panel - Did the Germans and the Japs ever do any combined ops, and if so, how did they get on?
     
  14. They didn't seem to have any real problems with blacks (Other than they were untermench) mainly because they lost their colonies years before and had few living in Germany (I seem to remember reading they did have a few half caste kids who's mothers had been shagging Africans serving in the French army when they occupied the Ruhr area.
    It make me laugh when people go on about Jesse Owen showing Hitler his racist views were wrong. When he was treated better by the Nazis than he was in his own country and Hitler acknowledged him when the US president didnt bother.
     
  15. You a QI fan as well then :)?