Navy "..too small.." says Defence Minister

Ellwood is pro-Remain. Thus, likely on his way out in terms of being a minister. He can therefore speak his mind. However, we've been short of ships all the time he's been a minister, and for many years before, and I bet he's not been this open/critical in that time. Politics and the post '89' Peace Dividend' is killing the forces and you can't just ramp up capability / forces overnight. That being the case, we need to stay out of trouble until we can deal with it, or accept that we may be embarrassed, or much worse.
That lad doing the research.... hang on....

@HRJ1993 are you with us?
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
But besides the Poles and US who is going to bring these armoured brigades? Why do you think members of NATO should be allowed to pick and choose what they contribute? If you want the organization to thrive the only thing the UK is going to get is a section of the front lines with the mission to man it. If you expect certain countries bear the brunt of the fighting and dying, you are going to be shocked when they don't dance to that tune.
Turn that round: if we're keeping the sea lanes open and supplying a lot of the air power, what are the other buggers doing?
 
Tobias Elwood is a self serving snivelling weasel. I’ve dealt with him first hand and he is only interested in number 1 and will play his ex military card to his advantage whilst not giving a hoop really.
Well I can't believe that for a moment you lying scum.


He's a Member of Parliament for crying out loud.

A Conservative MP and a Minister.


You should be utterly ashamed of yourself.
 

Trans-sane

LE
Book Reviewer
Turn that round: if we're keeping the sea lanes open and supplying a lot of the air power, what are the other buggers doing?
Not only that, supplying a lot of the c2 air power that keeps coalition partners alive and operating as a force multiplier. Right now the only conceivable military threat to NATO is Russia. No NATO nation can bring ground forces to match Russia 1-1. Poland probably comes closest in terms of force mix, but they only really have three or four brigades and Russia will be bringing two corps for each brigade. Next it's the USA and you at least have a hope of bringing parity of numbers even if you are (heavily) outgunned on the IDF front. If that war us to be won, it will be won in the air and the RAF will be pulling more than its weight.

If somehow the war is against China, then it's going to be air and sea power probably operating out of Australia or NZ. Other than political convenience for the USA in the UN or other world talking-shops, what would a UK armoured corp bring to the table?
 
If somehow the war is against China, then it's going to be air and sea power probably operating out of Australia or NZ. Other than political convenience for the USA in the UN or other world talking-shops, what would a UK armoured corps bring to the table?
An opportunity to re-enact the Battle of the Imjin...
 
Turn that round: if we're keeping the sea lanes open and supplying a lot of the air power, what are the other buggers doing?
The RN is a bit to stretched thin to properly escort a convoy, that might not arrive in time. How many fast jet squadrons does the RAF have??
 
Not only that, supplying a lot of the c2 air power that keeps coalition partners alive and operating as a force multiplier. Right now the only conceivable military threat to NATO is Russia. No NATO nation can bring ground forces to match Russia 1-1. Poland probably comes closest in terms of force mix, but they only really have three or four brigades and Russia will be bringing two corps for each brigade. Next it's the USA and you at least have a hope of bringing parity of numbers even if you are (heavily) outgunned on the IDF front. If that war us to be won, it will be won in the air and the RAF will be pulling more than its weight.

If somehow the war is against China, then it's going to be air and sea power probably operating out of Australia or NZ. Other than political convenience for the USA in the UN or other world talking-shops, what would a UK armoured corp bring to the table?
Using the power of the Wiki...

Polish Land Forces - Wikipedia

The Poles have more heavy metal than you do, with a smaller army to boot.
When has the Air Force ever won a war? Why would you expect them to do so now?

If NATO is to survive the 30/30/30/30 goal must happen, and everybody has to contribute ground/air/and naval power. If not don't count on the US to give a **** and defend your backyard.
 

Trans-sane

LE
Book Reviewer
The RN is a bit to stretched thin to properly escort a convoy, that might not arrive in time. How many fast jet squadrons does the RAF have??
A handful of minutes on Wikipedia suggests at least 8 of typhoon. @Magic_Mushroom is the.man in the know if he considers it non sensitive. As the RN, yes a little stretched. But we are currently the only navy besides the USN capable of putting a super-carrier task group together, and supplying it's logistics. Peace time tasks will suffer, but a war that important... And that further reinforces my point. MORE air and sea power, more depth and redundancy. If the war is against China you will want as many hard-bastard marines to take those fortified atolls they've been building and 3 and 16 brigade are renowned for turning out hard case light infantry.
 

Trans-sane

LE
Book Reviewer
Using the power of the Wiki...

Polish Land Forces - Wikipedia

The Poles have more heavy metal than you do, with a smaller army to boot.
When has the Air Force ever won a war? Why would you expect them to do so now?

If NATO is to survive the 30/30/30/30 goal must happen, and everybody has to contribute ground/air/and naval power. If not don't count on the US to give a **** and defend your backyard.
The Poles share a land border with Russia. They also possess the industrial infrastructure to build their own tanks but haven't had an aeronautical industry since pre-ww2.
 
A handful of minutes on Wikipedia suggests at least 8 of typhoon. @Magic_Mushroom is the.man in the know if he considers it non sensitive. As the RN, yes a little stretched. But we are currently the only navy besides the USN capable of putting a super-carrier task group together, and supplying it's logistics. Peace time tasks will suffer, but a war that important... And that further reinforces my point. MORE air and sea power, more depth and redundancy. If the war is against China you will want as many hard-bastard marines to take those fortified atolls they've been building and 3 and 16 brigade are renowned for turning out hard case light infantry.
I think you are starting to gravely overstate the UK's reach, and are missing out on the political implications of letting alliance members pick and choose what they will contribute. In a war with Russia it will be all or nothing.
 
The Poles share a land border with Russia. They also possess the industrial infrastructure to build their own tanks but haven't had an aeronautical industry since pre-ww2.
??
The Baltics, Belrus, and Ukraine are Russia??

I am a geographically challenged septic I know....but where do you come up with this assessment.
Sorry forgot the slice of Russia (Kaliningrad Oblast)..
 
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Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
When has the Air Force ever won a war? Why would you expect them to do so now?
I'd suggest that 2 ATAF did a fair bit of damage to 12th SS Panzer in Normandy.

I'd also suggest that a few waves of Brimstone-equipped Typhoons could upset ground forces' plans for an uninterrupted day out.
 

Yokel

LE
From here on the Carrier Strike thread - about October/November last year

Returning to the question of can we generate a task group, with everyone thinking a carrier needs umpteen escorts that exist only to defend the carrier and cannot be detached for other tasks, and the usual idiots claiming that someone in a rowing boat with a shotgun can sink a carrier....

HMS Queen Elizabeth was escorted by the Type 23 Monmouth during her trials, and supported by the tanker RFA Tidespring. At the same time RN ships were committed to Exercise Trident Juncture - two Type 23s providing ASW for the USS Iwo Jima, which had Royal Marines aboard, and a force of four MCMV and a Survey ship as their command platform. There was probably a SSN there as well.

At the same time Albion (LPD) and RFA Mounts Bay (LSD(A)) were committed to Saif Sareea 3 with a large part of 3 Cdo Bde. There was a Type 45 taking part in SS3, although she was doing it was part of a routine deployment - there was another Type 45 deployed in the Eastern Med at the same time.

Thinking of Sun Tzu/Clauswitz and 'concentration of force', what if this had been a fully worked up task group, with a fully worked up carrier and air group?

1 x carrier (with up to 24 x F-35B, 9 x Merlin HM2, plus Crowsnest and Junglies)
1 x LPD (with bootnecks)
1 X LSD(A) (with more bootnecks)
1 or 2 x Type 45
3 x Type 23
4 x MCMV, plus SVHO (Survey vessel) as command platform
Multiple RFA tankers/stores ships
1 x SSN (at least)
 
??
The Baltics, Belrus, and Ukraine are Russia??

I am a geographically challenged septic I know....but where do you come up with this assessment.
I'd suggest that 2 ATAF did a fair bit of damage to 12th SS Panzer in Normandy.

I'd also suggest that a few waves of Brimstone-equipped Typhoons could upset ground forces' plans for an uninterrupted day out.
Yes, if they have an un opposed sortie without having to worry about the Russian Airforce or the SAM belt that will be protecting the ground forces. But how long will your forces be able to sustain a 25 to 50 percent causality rate before they are used up. The Russians are not going to roll over and die for free.
 
...When has the Air Force ever won a war?...
When has an Army ever won a war on it’s own in modern times?

...If not don't count on the US to give a **** and defend your backyard...
I don’t think many of us do anymore.

...A handful of minutes on Wikipedia suggests at least 8 of typhoon...
We currently have 7 Typhoon sqns (1, II, 3, 6 and 11) including the OCU (29) and TES (41). Two further sqns will form shortly, 9 and 12. These are augmented by 2 sqns of Reaper (XIII and 39) and the nascent F-35 force which will grow to 3 sqns by 2023 (617, 207 and 809).

Better than other European NATO nations with the exception of France and Turkey, but still not enough.

Regards,
MM
 
When has an Army ever won a war on it’s own in modern times?



I don’t think many of us do anymore.



We currently have 7 Typhoon sqns (1, II, 3, 6 and 11) including the OCU (29) and TES (41). Two further sqns will form shortly, 9 and 12. These are augmented by 2 sqns of Reaper (XIII and 39) and the nascent F-35 force which will grow to 3 sqns by 2023 (617, 207 and 809).

Better than other European NATO nations with the exception of France and Turkey, but still not enough.

Regards,
MM
Thank you for your honest feedback. Would you say that most NATO members don't count on the US to help out much these days?? Not trying to pick a fight but it would be interesting to know.
 

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