National Service

ugly

LE
Moderator
But realistically, what use will millions of CD trained yoots be?
It’s not as if the UK is swept by floods, forest fire and hurricanes annually.
Its not for every day use, if you must force youth into service and military service isn't an option by force, by choice yes and must be seen as the better option you are still left with a pool of yoofs requiring worthwhile training. The training should provide worth to the nation even if only in dire emergency (floods/snow/drought) and must be available to use basic powered plant and equipment. Even if its manning phones, putting up refugee tents or handing out blankets its worthwhile.
 
We had exemptions and deferments for apprentices and people accepted into university then, the same can apply now. The NS scheme would be tackling two issues, lack of decent jobs for young unskilled school leavers and a trained reserve of civil and military defense persons.
You get one with the other, in Norway unmarried females had to serve if still unmarried by aged 27 or unless in a reserved occupation.
Those serving apprenticeships at big or small firms would be exempt unless they left that company before the age of say 25. Thats not too old. Both my lads would have benefited from this rather than waste time in college or university!
My youngest had the papers offering an apprenticeship at Ricardo, dependant upon the award of a Govt contract to fill a UOR for the sand pit. It didn't happen!

You should have told him to apply to Ricardo in Derby. He could have helped them build trains :mrgreen:
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
You should have told him to apply to Ricardo in Derby. He could have helped them build trains :mrgreen:
Yes because thats commutable from Eastbourne! His job was at Shoreham. Very commutable.
 
Were you not talking about money? The country had run out by 1941 - not even enough to boost the profits of private companies
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
I always found it strange that the UK got rid of Civil Defence
It ended finally in the way of civilian un paid employment with the end of the cold war, closing of the ROC observation posts and handing over everything to the police and fire services.
 
It ended finally in the way of civilian un paid employment with the end of the cold war, closing of the ROC observation posts and handing over everything to the police and fire services.

So If we couldn’t find a use for it then, is it really needed now?
Let’s take phones. We’re not talking about string some copper cable along the road to get the phones working again these days.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
Were you not talking about money? The country had run out by 1941 - not even enough to boost the profits of private companies
No I was talking about the way that the 1923 grouping and imposition of a minimum carriage for parcels whilst unregulated road traffic with surplus WD trucks was the first ball breaker. The railways weren't recompensed properly post 1919, some railways are still single line thanks to shipping track to france. The Govt paid what it could get away with, not what it would cost to replace, thats what govt does.
In 1945 many railway workshops were turned over for munitions, the 25 pounder in the IWM in London was built in the LNER workshops.
That isn't a problem, the way that the REC took over running wasn't, it was the recompense post war for the works that was paid at artificially low rates to help the economy. The railways struggled to recover, steel was required for export. I was replacing 1947 track in 1999. It has a 25 year life.
Money was just the final nail in the coffin, Labour wanted to nationalise (no bad thing in my opinion) but again the railways were subject to changes in policy by changes in govt. An independent of interference railway working to a national plan would have been better but then 20 20 hindsight is the norm on here!
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
So If we couldn’t find a use for it then, is it really needed now?
Let’s take phones. We’re not talking about string some copper cable along the road to get the phones working again these days.
What has ROC got to do with NS?
I was answering a question re CD.
As a country we dont have lots of troops or even emergency services to cope should it all go wrong. Give ourselves a ew years of NS and we would have a pool of trained people available. The training isn't just for trainings sake. I actually have very little use for leading a section in battle. I did however pass my SCBC and that gave me a level of confidence in dealing with people I have only just met and getting them to do what I want!
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
The UK Government binned serious CD in the late 1950s because

1. Money
2. Nukes (as in cost and 'no defence from')
It was seriously reconsidered in the late 1970's I seem to recall the advent of cruise missiles and the heating up of the cold war which in the end forced the collapse of the soviet union. I'm pretty sure that during the early 1980's Parliament debated civil defence quite a bit. I think the UK based units would have had their hands full.
 
What has ROC got to do with NS?
I was answering a question re CD.
As a country we dont have lots of troops or even emergency services to cope should it all go wrong. Give ourselves a ew years of NS and we would have a pool of trained people available. The training isn't just for trainings sake. I actually have very little use for leading a section in battle. I did however pass my SCBC and that gave me a level of confidence in dealing with people I have only just met and getting them to do what I want!

If it all goes wrong, the BIG issue won’t be NS avd putting things right, it will be the inability of the Police to maintain law acd order. See the recreational looting in London recently.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
If it all goes wrong, the BIG issue won’t be NS avd putting things right, it will be the inability of the Police to maintain law acd order. See the recreational looting in London recently.
At least we would have had someone to area clean afterwards!
 
It was seriously reconsidered in the late 1970's I seem to recall the advent of cruise missiles and the heating up of the cold war which in the end forced the collapse of the soviet union. I'm pretty sure that during the early 1980's Parliament debated civil defence quite a bit. I think the UK based units would have had their hands full.
Not sure what this has to do with the issue, but try these older threads:

Cold War Question - home defence

Cold War/WW3 British 'Ad-hoc' Home defence units

Historical nuclear preparation.





 
What's entertaining about this thread is the assumption by some posters that the younger population will just roll over and do what they're told whether they like it or not.

What's even more entertaining is that many of the same posters are probably supporters of Margaret Thatcher whose watchwords were independence, individuality and self-determination.
 
What has ROC got to do with NS?
I was answering a question re CD.
As a country we dont have lots of troops or even emergency services to cope should it all go wrong. Give ourselves a ew years of NS and we would have a pool of trained people available. The training isn't just for trainings sake. I actually have very little use for leading a section in battle. I did however pass my SCBC and that gave me a level of confidence in dealing with people I have only just met and getting them to do what I want!
if you had to find a way of national service.

I wouldn’t do it military (exemption for military yes), I’d do some kind of volunteering work part time makes things easier and cheaper

Not holding up as an example, but we have had Civil Defence in Ireland since the end of the ARP. It’s voluntary (instrs and 1 Officer per county is paid) and a bit like the TA in some aspects. They don’t just do training and are used for crowd control, stewarding, first aid at big events, forest fire fighting, missing persons searches etc.

There is:
Casualty - first aid up to EMT level (think everyone gets basic)
SAR - capabilities include USAR, drone, K9, search co-ordination, heights and dinghies AFS - fire fighting
Radiation monitoring
Welfare - catering, setting up Accomodiation etc for groups of displaced people
 
if you had to find a way of national service.

I wouldn’t do it military (exemption for military yes), I’d do some kind of volunteering work part time makes things easier and cheaper

Not holding up as an example, but we have had Civil Defence in Ireland since the end of the ARP. It’s voluntary (instrs and 1 Officer per county is paid) and a bit like the TA in some aspects. They don’t just do training and are used for crowd control, stewarding, first aid at big events, forest fire fighting, missing persons searches etc.

There is:
Casualty - first aid up to EMT level (think everyone gets basic)
SAR - capabilities include USAR, drone, K9, search co-ordination, heights and dinghies AFS - fire fighting
Radiation monitoring
Welfare - catering, setting up Accomodiation etc for groups of displaced people
Apart from the training (which I presume people get paid for) do people then carry on with their normal lives until needed in a crisis?
 

overopensights

ADC
Book Reviewer
Does anyone know what kind of sanctions were put on refuseniks in the 50's?I know that plenty(but not all)were locked up in WW2.
As a child and early one morning, I remember a young coal miner in our street being taken from his house and manhandled into a RMP wagon, he was in his pajamas wearing an overcoat. The fellow was so quiet that we hardly knew him. His crime was that he had not attended work as a miner for some time, he had been classed as a 'reserve occupation' person. My mother was in tears and felt sorry for him. 'It could be one of mine" she said (my parents had five boys) "Well it bloody well won't be, they'll go like I did" replied my father, then he said referring to the miner, "They'll send him somewhere awful" As it was he went off to fight in Korea, he came home two years later, then he carried on in his quiet way as if he hadn't even been away.
 

Sixty

ADC
Moderator
Book Reviewer
What's entertaining about this thread is the assumption by some posters that the younger population will just roll over and do what they're told whether they like it or not.
It would be interesting to see how many of the cheerleaders for it would find themselves coincidentally over any proposed age limit or they'd be all for it.
 
What about the school leavers who have university places for the hard, worthwhile subjects-Medicine, engineering, sciences, law* and so on-are they to be deprived of a hard won place which will almost certainly benefit the country in the long term future ?


* Only joking-law students are automatically assigned 2 years of sewage treatment duty.
 

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