National Italian Firearms Course.

Discussion in 'Police, PMCs, Security' started by tony815, May 29, 2011.

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  1. Hello Everyone,
    I just wanted to introduce myself and get some opinions from the members here on this site. I'll just give you a bit of back ground about myself first.
    I am Ex British Army and Police from 1992 to 2003. I left to live in Italy where I am still today. After qualifiing and attaining both the Italian Hunting and Sport shooting licences I was asked to teach at the local shooting range. I have been teaching both private and public individuals/organisations since. I completed and attained a dipolma in tactical firearms and am now a Italian national tactical firearms instructor, mainly I teach tactical shooting to the Italian state and road police, also some private armed guards.
    I recently had a friend over who I was teaching and he mentioned that maybe this might appeal to members on this site or police looking to attain a Euopean tactical firearms accreditation. He thought it would be a good thing to have on someones CV. It would also be useful for those Police Officers seeking to join Firearms Units.
    I was thinking of just a few courses of no more than 8. Each individual would have an extensive instruction in numerous pistols over a 2 day course, probably Friday and Saturday. At the end they would recieve a European accredition in tactical firearms safety, providing they passed a exam which isn't too difficult. I would look to September/October this year at the earliest. The course wouldn't cost alot and include accomadation and food for both days. Also it wouldn't be profit making and all funds would go to the National Italian firearms association to improve shooting facilities and develop youth shooting.
    I don't know what you think, but please let me know if anyone would be interested?
     
  2. Bouillabaisse

    Bouillabaisse LE Book Reviewer

    Tony, pm sent
     
  3. I am a carabinieri walt, can I learn to shoot italian style with you? I heard its well ally. Also, do you provide the white carabinieri leather holsters, they are a must!
     

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  4. cutting around saying what a mistaka to makea?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Tony, IMHO you are a tad expensive mate - even for europe.

    Military and police personnel can come to the USA and do a Tiger Swan 5 day course for 50 quid more than you charge for a weekend course. Tiger Swan courses are run by ex-SF personnel. And, they have been known to quietly visit venues in europe.

    I personally would not expect to be paying over $200 - $250 a day for a course with a top provider and can even get courses run by NRA training qualified ex- US military special forces and police SWAT for about $200 - $300 for the weekend. These guys do not have the BS value of a Tiger Swan or Kyle Lamb course but they are very competent.

    I did note you are doing fullboard and supplying the ammo, even so its only 150 to 300 rounds for 2 days. I would expect at least 400 to 500 a day to even make a dent on the individuals muscle memory to allow continued competence down the line as we both know shooting is a degradeable skill.
     
  6. My 'uncle' in Palermo runs shooting courses for right minded types. Course includes pillion shooting from superbikes, passports and new identities plus a final confirmatory 'fun shoot' at a political target of his choice.

    Apply in person:

    Zio Salvatore Riina
    Prigione Ucciardone
    Palermo
    Italy

    Expenses will be reimbursed in addition to a generous cash gift on successful completion of the contract.

    Candidates are advised not to drink the coffee or admire the view from open windows.

    Che ne pensi Tony?
     
  7. You've just had your Dolmio Day, I can tell.

    To be fair, the Bersalighieri, or however you spell it, were/are (?) excellent in Afghanistan, even if they look a bit daft.
     

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  8. Hello Effendi,
    In reply to your comments I must admit I am abit surprised. I did alot of research on the costs of others who run courses and my prices seem fair considering what the courses offer.
    First of all I know flights from Stanstead airport to Ancona airport can be brought for as little as 99p. I wouldn't think you would be able to find the same flying from England to the USA.
    Also the course as you rightly mentioned includes full accomodation, all meals and all equipment provided. I haven't seen any others that can provide this in Europe for a lesser price.
    Whilst I see your point about having training done with ex special forces that doesn't necessarily make them good teachers. I am not putting myself forward as a special forces firearms instructor. I am providing the opportunity for those outside Italy, mainly England to learn and gain good tactical firearms competency.
    Not to put too fine a point on this, but I am running these courses through the UITS which is the Italian National Shooting Association at one of their ranges. This has a cost as all the particapants of the course have to be fully insurance (as I am sure they would feel safer knowing that) as I am. Also if they pass the final exam they recieve a certificate of competency that allows them to apply for firearms licenses in Italy and these are also reconized in other european countries.
    Furthermore as you mentioned ammo is a point I know that in the USA ammo is a third of the price therefore I can't supply the same amount as the US courses provide. but when I say mininum it is the mininum and I would also look to use more than less ammo.
    I completely agree about your point of the amount of shots needed to make a dent in a individuals muscle memory, but as your aware British citzeans in the UK don't even get a chance to use a firearms on a regular basis due to the stupid UK legalisation system on firearms. I am offering short weekends courses for those who are looking to get good basic skills and of course they would need to return to maintain those skills.
    I see your based in the US which has a far easier system of firearms legalisation,but please bear in mind the problems that are here in Europe with regards to the current legalisation.
    Regards,
    Tony
     
  9. Hi Tony,

    the fabled .99p flight. Add tax, booking fee and an online creditcard usage charge to that and you are nearer the real cost. I used to fly out to Germany regularly until last year and the .99p flights always seemed to cost me 60 - 80 quid. However, granted it is still cheaper than hopping the pond. Although if you shop with BA in september they do their annual half price sale and Thomsens the holiday people can sort you out here and back for around 300 on their charter flights.

    Accomodation, fair one. I budget around 30 - 40 quid for a night if its me on my own, without the wife, who thinks that 3 star is camping and anything below deserves a field conditions supplement.

    Ex US Speshul Forces, as you are doubtless aware the role of green berets is to act as force multipliers by facilitating the training, provisioning and tactical and operational leadership of the poor downtroden country whose turn it is to be saved this week. Therefore, by their very nature the US Speshul Ones are trainers and this ability is tested when they go through their SF training particularly during the final exercise which is always called Robin Sage. The chappies at Tiger Swan are former top level trainers, having in the main come from DELTA Force and DEVGRU, they have a wide variety of training experience and many of them, shooting privately, being rated in the top tier of IDPA and USPSA IPSC shooting.

    Ammunition. Nope, it is feckin expensive here too believe it or not. With the "GWOT" manufacturers cannot keep up with the demand of the US military so they can charge civvies what they want for the amount that they do let leak onto the market. Shooting .22 copies of full calibre weapons has become the new hobby for men here.....sad gits.

    As an example: I checked the Swiss prices for Fiocchi 115gr 9mm which appears to cost around E23.00 compared to the US price for the same which is around $19.00. So as you can see it is not 1/3 of the price. From here:

    http://sportarms.com/pdf/sportarms_munition.pdf
    FMJ Ammo : Ammunition To Go

    Basic skills are fine, however, it is nothing more than an interest factor trip unless continued frequent and regular training is available.

    The US has its regulation too. You cannot just roll up and buy a gun is you feel like it. There are now Federal forms to fill out, criminal background checks to be done, waiting periods on some firearm purchases and if you even consider buying two firearms on one day expect a visit from the Feds. You also cannot just buy a Glock and stick it in your waistband, you have to attend a course, be fingerprinted for the State Police and have the application for a concealed carry permit passed through State law enforcement to Federal law enforcement. All quite sensible and easy if you are a law abiding citizen. As a legally classified permanent resident but non-US citizen I have some extra hoops to jump through. To be honest its about as onerous as it was in the UK 20 years ago if you were a law abiding citizen.

    You stated that you train police officers: Where I am the State requires that all law enforcement officers who will act in a tactical role be trained, qualified and certified. If you cut through all the local department crap of Lt's making themselves feel important this means attending a State approved 5 day course of instruction. You can attend these courses at a variety of colleges or undertake a course with the local SWAT/Tactical Association. Here it is the Florida SWAT Association, check out their training calendar and the course costs:

    Florida SWAT Association (FSA) - Bringing out the best in SWAT

    Yes I know good "practical" shooting schools are thin on the ground in euro-land, I know of instructors who charge E200 a day and have gained their experience by attending a couple of US based courses and I know that Larry Vickers looks at a day rate of $2000. But I still think you are pricey, thats just my opinion on cost and no way based on your competence which I have no doubt is excellent.

    Do me a favour though will you PM me details on the Euro certificate thingy you are on about please. I am coming back to europe, not the UK, in a few years and would like to have a look see what it is.
     
  10. Hello Effendi,
    Thanks for the reply, it was interesting reading. I did in fact look up Tiger Swan courses online and I don't seem to be anywhere near as expensive as them. If you take for example their tactical pistol course is two full days like mine. They do exactly the same tactical shooting excerises as I do with pupils. Their course cost is $575 dollars. This also doesn't include the pistol, holster, belt and magizine's which all have to be supplied by the studentor hired as an additional cost. Also in order for the student to do the tactical pistol course they need to have completed the one day introductory pistol course with them which is all inclusive costs $340.
    Then as you rightly mentioned there's the further cost of the ammo which on their course the student uses around 1200 rounds. As you stated you pay around $19 per box of 50 9mm rounds that then is a further cost of $456.
    If you add these costs with your estimation of $300 for return flights plus accommodation at $120 say $80 for food not including any equipment you might have to hire the total would be around $1871 at the current exchange rate that would be £1150. That is considerbly more than my course that offers the same and is all inclusive. I don't want to cause a difference, but in my experiance I would much rather recieve training on this side of the "pond" than over there.
    I did say that I had done my homework and as you can see looking at your figures I am in fact alot cheaper.
    Regards,
    Tony
     
  11. We could discuss this forever.

    Yes, ok, so you are cheaper - good luck. I somehow think you would offer a totally different experience to that of Tiger Swan or similar.
     
  12. Hello Effendi,
    Would you like to clarify, what you mean by that?
    It seems somewhat a derogatory comment to me.
    I have seen what Tiger Swan and others such as Euro tactical offer and I am providing the same if not better as my courses are all inclusive and fully insured with the backing of "UITS" Italian National Shooting Association, which many private courses are not.
    At the end of the day I know what I am providing and the level of training. I know that anyone would benefit from my training, as the Italian Police, Military and armed private security persons do at the moment. I also teach private Italian individuals that continue returning for further training. I know that you shouldn't always judge a book by its cover and it seems you have done just that!
    Tony