" Narrative " verdict on dead RMPs.

#2
Just a quick comment.

Guys and Girls, I'm sure you all know how sensitive this issue is to the families, the unit and some Arrse members who were personal friends and colleagues of the fallen.

Please temper your comments on this thread accordingly.

Thanks

PTP
 
#3
Seems that the unanswered question is who had all the Iridium Phones and who was actually using them. Shouldn't be difficult to ascertain, each phone will have been signed for - by a namde individual for a specific purpose and the phone billing records will show who was actually using them. I mean obviously some vehicles may have been isued them "just in case" but the facts would be interesting??
 
#5
The silence is deafening!
 

Auld-Yin

ADC
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Reviews Editor
#7
Don't you think that is just so Outstanding! :roll:
 
#9
Was it a question of them all being booked-out? I understood that one of the problems in their widespread use was fact that they did not work inside vehicles - i.e. the sat receiver had to be held out of the window. This moving vehicle factor also meant that catching a signal was not very efficient either. Hence "they're no good" started with "F** 'em, why bother" to follow.
(I know I wasn't there but I seem to recall evidence as to holding out of window being offered up in BoI)
 
#10
perhaps they were issued out but were not used as they were difficult to use "on the move". However for static, isolated units without any other relable comms they would have been vital - literally!
 
#12
I would enter some input on this but I have no idea what started the thread off!!!!
 
#13
chocolate_frog said:
I would enter some input on this but I have no idea what started the thread off!!!!
Read from the top oh Chocolate frog.

Excellent point to remeber the sensitivities of those grieving, they need the same answers.
 
#14
If my 25 years in the Corps is anything to go by the main problem that the patrol had was very poor leadership at the officer level. RMP Officers tend to think that they will earn brownie points if they manage to do the job with what resources they have to hand. They don't want to be seen to be 'bothering' their superiors by asking for what their men really need. I wish I had a pound for every time I've heard one say "No it's OK Sir we will manage." Perhaps, now that RMP is part of the AGC things will change, but I for one will not be holding my breath!

My thoughts are with the relatives. There but for the grace.......
 

cpunk

LE
Moderator
#15
It bothers me that we are seeking to 'point fingers' at either one or a small group of individuals as principally responsible for the deaths of these men. In reality, those prinicipally responsible are the Iraqis who killed them; after that a considerable number of actions contributed to them being in the situation they were but mostly, it seems to me, it was a lack of situational awareness at both the operational and tactical level which led to them being in that Police Station at that time. Lack of comms and lack of ammunition are red herrings: it happened too fast even for perfect comms to have saved them; and they didn't actually fire a round - had they done so, some of them may have been able to get away.
 
#16
Exemplo_Ducky_Mouse said:
If my 25 years in the Corps is anything to go by the main problem that the patrol had was very poor leadership at the officer level.
Don't know when/if those years came to an end. I left in 74 and the situation you describe had been in place for 22+ years prior to that. The Corps had the burden that it only had its own corps of officers after a long period when any officer could come along and have a go at being a military policeman. The other problem is that the nature of the job is such that there is no place for an officer in the day to day scheme of things. Once they had signed vehicle work tickets their day was done.
 
#17
cpunk

I agree with the sentiment of your message. I suspect I know why they didn't return any fire. At least in the first instance they would have been worried about the repercussions of firing their weapons. They would be sure that they would get no backing from the authorities and would in fact be almost certain to be prosecuted. By the time they realised their fate it was obviously too late.

OK I wasn't there but when faced with a very nasty incident in Belfast I took the easy route and having drawn my pistol decided that it wasn't really worth discharging it. Instead I smacked the guy over the head with my Walther PP and did a runner. The only thing that prevented me from firing, and believe me I was justified to shoot, the incident having been witnessed by several RUC Officers, was my knowledge that RMP and ALC (as it was then) would have hung me out to dry.
 

cpunk

LE
Moderator
#18
Exemplo_Ducky_Mouse said:
I suspect I know why they didn't return any fire. At least in the first instance they would have been worried about the repercussions of firing their weapons. They would be sure that they would get no backing from the authorities and would in fact be almost certain to be prosecuted. By the time they realised their fate it was obviously too late.
I completely agree, and it wouldn't have been the first time.
 
#19
good point. makes no difference if you carry 50 rounds or 150 rounds, if you are looking over your shoulder before daring to pull the trigger.
 

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