My recent trip to Dublin, a few thoughts

overopensights

ADC
Book Reviewer
Urban myth or not
While in Geogh Barracks Armagh during the early 1970s I used to go into the Regimental museum under the Keep, it was being run down but had a lot of really good kit and some magnificent albums going back very many years, it's sad to think what happened to them all. The chap in charge there mentioned that one of the Ulster Div battalions had no wish to dispose of their colours to anyone. and that they were buried with full military honours. Is this myth or true?
 
I thought holding an Irish passport, automatically made you an Irish citizen, but then a recent immigration ruling, found against a Northern Irish nationalist, who claimed she was an Irish citizen under the GFA, due to holding an Irish passport.

The tribunal ruled she is legally British by virtue of being born in the UK and must renounce her British citizenship to be regarded as Irish.

Good.
 
Apparently there were three of these exhibitions, one in Pearse St, one in Dame St and one in the City Hall. There was also something similar in Kildare st, Sorry that I cannot be more specific. It is good though that the City council at least acknowledge these soldiers, even if their message is a bit off.
more than a little Republican (sneaking regarders of) element involved,I suspect.
 
Urban myth or not
While in Geogh Barracks Armagh during the early 1970s I used to go into the Regimental museum under the Keep, it was being run down but had a lot of really good kit and some magnificent albums going back very many years, it's sad to think what happened to them all. The chap in charge there mentioned that one of the Ulster Div battalions had no wish to dispose of their colours to anyone. and that they were buried with full military honours. Is this myth or true?
I believe the colours of the 10th service Battalion (Londonderry UVF) Royal Irish Fusiliers, are in the Church of Ireland Cathedral, in the city.

Saint Annes Cathedral in Belfast holds the colours of the 1st Royal Irish Fusiliers (Armagh UVF joined the 9th Service Battalion) and the 1st Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers (Tyrone, Londonderry, Fermanagh and Donegal UVF volunteers joined 9th/10th/11th service battalions)

I wonder would the Royal Ulster Rifles museum in Belfast City Centre hold any of the Ulster Div battalions colours, in their possession.

Would the 8th Battalion (East Belfast) for example, have carried any colours, with them belonging to the Royal Irish Rifles?
 
Irish citizens have had certain rights in the UK since 1922, it may be that these rights may cease after the end of this month? and then equalize with UK rights in Ireland (the EU) . Does Isgt have any ideas of this?
Well the Anglo-Irish Treaty is an international agreement that long predates the EU. All relevant EU legislation takes account of it.

There is zero Will from Ireland to change the provisions and the only way anything will change in that regard is if Boris changes it... and even then
 
Ah, that would be the tunnel which was designed for large trucks to leave the City, which was designed too low for large trucks to leave the City:


It's an Irish thing....

Very very few SHC’s come into Ireland (prior or since)
 

overopensights

ADC
Book Reviewer
Well the Anglo-Irish Treaty is an international agreement that long predates the EU. All relevant EU legislation takes account of it.

There is zero Will from Ireland to change the provisions and the only way anything will change in that regard is if Boris changes it... and even then
I hope it all goes very smoothly and that there's massive common sense all round!
 

Mike Barton

War Hero
I thought holding an Irish passport, automatically made you an Irish citizen, but then a recent immigration ruling, found against a Northern Irish nationalist, who claimed she was an Irish citizen under the GFA, due to holding an Irish passport.

The tribunal ruled she is legally British by virtue of being born in the UK and must renounce her British citizenship to be regarded as Irish.
Yes, the UK authorities will not merely accept that overnight you have become an Irish citizen with regard to issues like tax, immigration etc if you have always lived as a British citizen under accepted British jurisdiction all your life, which is fair enough. But the woman in question was challenging her status as a life-long Irish citizen and resident of Northern Ireland under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement and referred not so much to her but to the rights her status would give a third-party foreign national with regard to UK-wide rights.

The case involved a woman from Derry who has an American husband. She wanted to get her husband a UK residency permit to live with her in Derry (the UK Home Office being responsible for immigration in Northern Ireland, naturally). She applied on the basis of being an EU citizen (Irish) and wanted the residency granted on those terms (which would absolve the requirement to pay an up front eye-watering cash bond for non-EU spouses).

However, the Home Office being based in London and not subject to the GFA said she was for their purposes a UK citizen and therefore she must apply as such. The Home Office told her that if she wished to apply as an Irish citizen she could do so but must first renounce her British citizenship. She objected to this on the grounds that she never had been in her eyes a British citizen and under the terms of the GFA should not be forced to be one (even if only to immediately renounce it).

On the face of it the case was one of arcane procedures and legal definitions but it certainly undermined the faith of many people in one of the very foundational clauses of the GFA.
 

par avion

War Hero
Urban myth or not
While in Geogh Barracks Armagh during the early 1970s I used to go into the Regimental museum under the Keep, it was being run down but had a lot of really good kit and some magnificent albums going back very many years, it's sad to think what happened to them all. The chap in charge there mentioned that one of the Ulster Div battalions had no wish to dispose of their colours to anyone. and that they were buried with full military honours. Is this myth or true?
Off thread but on the 25th December 1941 when the British surrendered after the 18 day battle of Hong Kong, the Middlesex Regiment and one of the Indian Regiments buried their colours in the grounds of Victoria barracks on Hong Kong island on the night of the surrender.

On the return of British Forces in 1945 a search for the colours was made, they could not be found. subsequent searches were made with the last being made in 1978 by Gurkha sappers from QGE with mine detectors without success.

The site was subsequently handed over to the Hong Kong with the new BFHQ at HMS Tamar (the upturned gin bottle).

The problem was when they were buried in the playing fields, it was night time and there were Jap sentries patrolling around so they could not pinpoint the exact place they were buried.

It was not thought that they were found by the Japenese as they had always made a big thing about capturing British Army colours for propaganda purposes.

Although in the sixties some drums were found in a shop in Japan which belonged to 2nd Bn Gordon Highlanders which had been captured in the surrender of Singapore on 15th February 1942.

End of thread drift.
 

par avion

War Hero
I believe the colours of the 10th service Battalion (Londonderry UVF) Royal Irish Fusiliers, are in the Church of Ireland Cathedral, in the city.

Saint Annes Cathedral in Belfast holds the colours of the 1st Royal Irish Fusiliers (Armagh UVF joined the 9th Service Battalion) and the 1st Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers (Tyrone, Londonderry, Fermanagh and Donegal UVF volunteers joined 9th/10th/11th service battalions)

I wonder would the Royal Ulster Rifles museum in Belfast City Centre hold any of the Ulster Div battalions colours, in their possession.

Would the 8th Battalion (East Belfast) for example, have carried any colours, with them belonging to the Royal Irish Rifles?
I remember seeing a website a while ago in regards to a small museum in Belfast to one of the service battalions of the pre 1922 southern irish based battalions. It was 6th Bn RMF or something like that. It was out side the 9 counties Ulster recruiting area - i.e RIR, RIF, RIF.

The only reason I could thing of was to encourge recruitment of Ulster Catholics who might not be too keen to join a division consisting of UVF Orangemen.
 

par avion

War Hero
Well the Anglo-Irish Treaty is an international agreement that long predates the EU. All relevant EU legislation takes account of it.

There is zero Will from Ireland to change the provisions and the only way anything will change in that regard is if Boris changes it... and even then
Big Mick and Dev were looking to subvert the 1922 Anglo-Irish Treaty before the ink was even dry on the paper.
 
Yes, the UK authorities will not merely accept that overnight you have become an Irish citizen with regard to issues like tax, immigration etc if you have always lived as a British citizen under accepted British jurisdiction all your life, which is fair enough. But the woman in question was challenging her status as a life-long Irish citizen and resident of Northern Ireland under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement and referred not so much to her but to the rights her status would give a third-party foreign national with regard to UK-wide rights.

The case involved a woman from Derry who has an American husband. She wanted to get her husband a UK residency permit to live with her in Derry (the UK Home Office being responsible for immigration in Northern Ireland, naturally). She applied on the basis of being an EU citizen (Irish) and wanted the residency granted on those terms (which would absolve the requirement to pay an up front eye-watering cash bond for non-EU spouses).

However, the Home Office being based in London and not subject to the GFA said she was for their purposes a UK citizen and therefore she must apply as such. The Home Office told her that if she wished to apply as an Irish citizen she could do so but must first renounce her British citizenship. She objected to this on the grounds that she never had been in her eyes a British citizen and under the terms of the GFA should not be forced to be one (even if only to immediately renounce it).

On the face of it the case was one of arcane procedures and legal definitions but it certainly undermined the faith of many people in one of the very foundational clauses of the GFA.
London is subject to the GFA
 
Derry, or in this case Magherafelt is subject to the British Nationality Act 1981 which trumps the GFA.
 

Mike Barton

War Hero
Derry, or in this case Magherafelt is subject to the British Nationality Act 1981 which trumps the GFA.
You are entirely correct, but that came as something of a shock to the Nationalists of Northern Ireland who had been assured when they signed up for the GFA that they "could choose to be British, or Irish, or both" that in fact there would be cases where they would have to be British whether they liked it or not. I can understand how it came about but it is still one of those things that might have been made clearer at the time.

There is an interesting explanation of the finer points here.

The right to be British, Irish or both
 

Mike Barton

War Hero
London is subject to the GFA
Remarkably enough, apparently not, see the link I posted above.

Relevant quote:

"The Home Office's defence of its policy is largely grounded in the following two assertions:


Firstly, remarkably, that it is not bound by the terms of the GFA, (an international peace agreement the UK and Ireland lodged with the UN) and is therefore not required to amend its legislation as the UK Parliament is supreme.


Secondly, in contradiction, the Home Office argues that there is nothing in the GFA that prevents British citizenship being conferred at birth, and therefore law is compatible with the GFA."
 
Remarkably enough, apparently not, see the link I posted above.

Relevant quote:

"The Home Office's defence of its policy is largely grounded in the following two assertions:


Firstly, remarkably, that it is not bound by the terms of the GFA, (an international peace agreement the UK and Ireland lodged with the UN) and is therefore not required to amend its legislation as the UK Parliament is supreme.


Secondly, in contradiction, the Home Office argues that there is nothing in the GFA that prevents British citizenship being conferred at birth, and therefore law is compatible with the GFA."
The British government seemingly dotted their I's and crossed their T's.. They pulled the wool over the eyes of Sinn Fein, in 1998.
 
The British government seemingly dotted their I's and crossed their T's.. They pulled the wool over the eyes of Sinn Fein, in 1998.
That's the truth of it. The GFA is simply an agreement and unlike Dublin, Westminster did not amend any laws in line with it.

But it works both ways, the right to identify as British under the GFA does not confer any right to British Citizenship only UK Legislation does that and as we know Legislation can be changed in a heartbeat.
 
Ah, that would be the tunnel which was designed for large trucks to leave the City, which was designed too low for large trucks to leave the City:


It's an Irish thing....

This tunnel also displaced the soakage/runoff for rainwater for a wide area of the North side of the city and the result was the water was pushed elsewhere and caused flooding, especially to the house of a colleague of mine and the initial response of the Council was to deny it, of course. They gave the two fingers to the punters and thought they'd **** off but they didnt and sued the Council and won. Compensation was given and relief drainage works had to be put in.
 

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