My name is John Rigby

ugly

LE
Moderator
#1
My name is John Rigby
Ok its not we all know that but I did own a 1911 Rigby Mauser in .275 or 7x57 and this got me thinking about why the French didn't achieve commercial success with the 7.5 x 54 cartridge and why no sporting rifles were ever chambered in it.
Partly this was down to the strange French laws on military calibres and the fact that the Mas 1936 was not an easy rifle to build a sporting rifle from.
So I decided after selling my Mas 36 that I would retain the option (WHY? Because I can so there) of having a .30 calibre bullet in a 55mm case.
I will tell tall tales of derring do (actually I wont but hey its the web!) and drag you through the world of crap rifle builds, dodgy reamer makers and proof houses that cant be telling the truth!
Read all about it!
 
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Daxx

MIA
Book Reviewer
#2
It's a long weekend and I guess you found the gin bar.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#3
It was and still is a painful example of when you trust a professional to do a job after you have had that feeling too many times!
 
#10
@LJONESY With regard to your throwaway remarks towards @Daxx I have removed your post and any others that have been quoted.

I must remind you that this forum is not in the NAAFI and a certain type of adult humour/behaviour would be appreciated.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#12
I think it may be worth in the future blogging separately about this cartridge!
 
#13
@ugly - could it be that at the time of the 7.5 x 54 being produced, there was a plethora of 7 to 8mm rounds with established production lines and re-purposed weaponry ? What could it do that an existing 7x57 or .256 Mannlicher couldn't on medium game ?
There was a glut of ex ww1 Mauser 98 weapons that were re-bored for various calibres based on the mauser x57 cartridge , ditto the other various rifles from various nations. Commercially it would have been difficult to break into a saturated market. Then of course you had the depression between wars.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#14
@ugly - could it be that at the time of the 7.5 x 54 being produced, there was a plethora of 7 to 8mm rounds with established production lines and re-purposed weaponry ? What could it do that an existing 7x57 or .256 Mannlicher couldn't on medium game ?
There was a glut of ex ww1 Mauser 98 weapons that were re-bored for various calibres based on the mauser x57 cartridge , ditto the other various rifles from various nations. Commercially it would have been difficult to break into a saturated market. Then of course you had the depression between wars.
Indeed it was, the French have never been forward in promoting military cartridges for civilian use. The M1929 cartridge exists because the French had so many surplus German weapons and ammo and the original cartridge was too long and it meant that 7.92 x 57 was often confused with the 7.5 x 57 which meant a jam if the German ammo was loaded in the French chamber, apparently shortening the case by a whole 3mm meant it wouldn't be confused. Frankly I am not convinced of this and it may be another US based internet myth and original French research needs uncovering. Chap on the range would be the person to ask!
I am fairly sure that German hunting and firearms laws precluded the use of military calibres between the wars.
Rigby's rifles were built on German built receivers and assembled with UK built barrels and furniture. The design of the stock was the masterpiece, felt recoil is very low and the rifle returns to aim very quickly!
I wonder if @stoatman can get Chap to look into French source records?
Edited to add: SFM did load some soft point 7.5 French ammo, its not known if this was a govt contract or just trying the market out?
 
#15
Indeed it was, the French have never been forward in promoting military cartridges for civilian use. The M1929 cartridge exists because the French had so many surplus German weapons and ammo and the original cartridge was too long and it meant that 7.92 x 57 was often confused with the 7.5 x 57 which meant a jam if the German ammo was loaded in the French chamber, apparently shortening the case by a whole 3mm meant it wouldn't be confused. Frankly I am not convinced of this and it may be another US based internet myth and original French research needs uncovering. Chap on the range would be the person to ask!
I am fairly sure that German hunting and firearms laws precluded the use of military calibres between the wars.
Rigby's rifles were built on German built receivers and assembled with UK built barrels and furniture. The design of the stock was the masterpiece, felt recoil is very low and the rifle returns to aim very quickly!
I wonder if @stoatman can get Chap to look into French source records?
Edited to add: SFM did load some soft point 7.5 French ammo, its not known if this was a govt contract or just trying the market out?
I do believe that the 7.5x54mm cartridge is not just a necked down mauser 57mm job with 3 mil off, but a separate design. According to wikipedia
"The exterior shape of the case was designed to promote reliable case feeding and extraction in bolt action rifles and machine guns alike, under extreme conditions."
and it does hint that there were problem with the original cartridge besides sticking the wrong cartridge in a rifle. It might be that the original round was prone to mechanical failure so was redesigned. Could the real reason be that French attempts at a mauser cartridge ( perhaps with differ cartridge material and thickness ? ) were simply not up to scratch and so they redesigned ?
 
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ugly

LE
Moderator
#16
If you need to make 7.5 x 54 brass and I did when I started as horrible berdan primed (did I say primed ha!) was available, you start with standard 6.5 x 55 Swedish brass and neck it out 1mm with a standard 7.5 French die set.
Whether the chambers are of sufficient sloppiness tolerance to accept the 55mm length case or it shrinks slightly so that it fits when expanded (after all its physics, only so much metal and expansion takes it from somewhere) and thats about all you need to do. I have never needed to trim the brass cases to length and never needed to fireform them either.
For my 30-55 I have to fireform the cases first by firing 6.5 x 55 factory loads through the rifle and then resize slightly with the same 7.5 French dies. The cases are far tighter at the neck than the MAS Fodder!
From that I deduct that the M1929 round is a Mauser but derived from the Swedish case if one was used at all for start up purposes. There is no risk of misfeed from case shape in any weapon automatic or otherwise from any of the Mauser case designs. Lets face it they got it right first time!

Remember most of these designs were spurred on by the pre WW1 arms race that existed and the French were leaders in everything apart from case form until after WW1. They even retained the Hotchkiss in 8mm Lebel until the AA52 GPMG was adopted. Wiki is only as good as the people feeding it information and they have been Americans in the main who have perpetuated the myths of gun writers pre internet days.
I expect that the French records if available will show something different, the problem is getting hold of them. The only info we seem to get is interviews with the designer/builder of the Fr1 and 2. They dont seem to be keen on letting anything out and its in French!
 
#18
If you need to make 7.5 x 54 brass and I did when I started as horrible berdan primed (did I say primed ha!) was available, you start with standard 6.5 x 55 Swedish brass and neck it out 1mm with a standard 7.5 French die set.
Whether the chambers are of sufficient sloppiness tolerance to accept the 55mm length case or it shrinks slightly so that it fits when expanded (after all its physics, only so much metal and expansion takes it from somewhere) and thats about all you need to do. I have never needed to trim the brass cases to length and never needed to fireform them either.
For my 30-55 I have to fireform the cases first by firing 6.5 x 55 factory loads through the rifle and then resize slightly with the same 7.5 French dies. The cases are far tighter at the neck than the MAS Fodder!
From that I deduct that the M1929 round is a Mauser but derived from the Swedish case if one was used at all for start up purposes. There is no risk of misfeed from case shape in any weapon automatic or otherwise from any of the Mauser case designs. Lets face it they got it right first time!

Remember most of these designs were spurred on by the pre WW1 arms race that existed and the French were leaders in everything apart from case form until after WW1. They even retained the Hotchkiss in 8mm Lebel until the AA52 GPMG was adopted. Wiki is only as good as the people feeding it information and they have been Americans in the main who have perpetuated the myths of gun writers pre internet days.
I expect that the French records if available will show something different, the problem is getting hold of them. The only info we seem to get is interviews with the designer/builder of the Fr1 and 2. They dont seem to be keen on letting anything out and its in French!
Ah, I meant that the French attempt at making the case was deficient, perhaps due to design or materials technology. The original German produced 7.92x57 cartridge in its brass or steel forms were more than sufficient for the task in auto weapons.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#19
Ah, I meant that the French attempt at making the case was deficient, perhaps due to design or materials technology. The original German produced 7.92x57 cartridge in its brass or steel forms were more than sufficient for the task in auto weapons.
I get you now, now I think the quality of French conscripts and colonial troops wasn't brilliant, that probably led to confusion over ammo, illiterate Goumier stuffing 8mm Mauser into a 7.5 x 57 Lebel was probably the last straw.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#20
Adding the French were in the forefront of arms and ammunition design, the wars just seemed to happen before they had completed the next step.
 

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