Muslim leader to condemn terrorists

#1
The leader of a worldwide Muslim movement with thousands of followers in the UK is due to issue a fatwa - or Islamic religious ruling - condemning terrorism and warning suicide bombers that they are "destined for hell".
Pakistan-born Dr Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri, founder of the global Minhaj-ul-Quran movement, will make the formal UK proclamation of a fatwa, or religious edict, condemning terrorism and suicide bombing at a news conference in London.

The 600-page fatwa announces that "suicide bombings and attacks against civilian targets are not only condemned by Islam, but render the perpetrators totally out of the fold of Islam, in other words, to be unbelievers".
Article
 
#2
That's a very positive step on a highly topical issue.The only problem I can see is that when one following/sect of Islam issue a fatwa that threatens the ideological drive for extremism, the Emirs of the extremist movement will declare their opponents kafir.

This, to all intents and purposes negates the opponents fatwa in the eyes of the extremists.

Islam, by it's nature, is open to interpretation, and (obviously) lacks some kind of central figure (in the same way that Catholicism has the Pope) to make an authoritative statement.
 
#8
I wonder why this one is getting all this publicity, there have been several similar statements by others before but the media seem to have ignored them. Often I think both the TV and the press are happy to stir up hatred in this sphere because it is giood for business.

Any way it is not just Islam that has numpties who think killing in the name of god is good, there is a christian on trial in the Hague at the moment for having many muslims killed in the name of his god. There are septic fundamentalists who think killing doctors and nurses at abortion clinics is good. The list can go on and on. The reality is that almost all religions can be used to legitemise the discrimination and murder of those who do not conform.
 
#9
One person's voice against the thousands that disagree with him and continue to praise and encourage violence against the West! I would feel more reassured if there had been this sort of action by ALL of the various Islamic leaders immediately post 9/11, the London bombings, the Madrid bombings & every other atrocity, rather than the massive scenes of celebration viewed in many mudlim countries following 9/11! As it is I fear it is too little too late!
 
#10
ex_colonial said:
One person's voice against the thousands that disagree with him and continue to praise and encourage violence against the West! I would feel more reassured if there had been this sort of action by ALL of the various Islamic leaders immediately post 9/11, the London bombings, the Madrid bombings & every other atrocity, rather than the massive scenes of celebration viewed in many mudlim countries following 9/11! As it is I fear it is too little too late!
To be fair this is a 2nd cleric who has spoken out against the Islamic community in this manner, the thread is on arrse somewhere,

However it 'is' a good positive step forward in the right direction, the trouble is the cynical aspect of it :wink:
 
#11
maxi_77 said:
I wonder why this one is getting all this publicity, there have been several similar statements by others before but the media seem to have ignored them. Often I think both the TV and the press are happy to stir up hatred in this sphere because it is giood for business.

Any way it is not just Islam that has numpties who think killing in the name of god is good, there is a christian on trial in the Hague at the moment for having many muslims killed in the name of his god. There are septic fundamentalists who think killing doctors and nurses at abortion clinics is good. The list can go on and on. The reality is that almost all religions can be used to legitemise the discrimination and murder of those who do not conform.
Probably because of his status. He represents a mainstream Pakistani Sunni school of thought, and that is the group that we are mostly fighting at the moment. He is also a respected thinker on Islamic law, rather than one of the self-taught enthusiasts who currently seem to be getting all the attention. As I have said before, the problem with being a self taught expert is that you don't know if your instructor is an idiot.

Imagine if, during the Crusades, a Catholic Cardinal had gone public with a statement that said that the whole death and violence thing was theologically unsound, and that Crusaders were at risk of hell and purgatory.
It might not have stopped the Crusades, but it might have seriously reduced the level of enthusiasm.

I agree with the rest of your comments. Religion is a hook you can hang many things on. You can justify anything with it. More accurately, you can hide anything under it. BUT it's not compulsory!

If you want to be a right b*****d to your neighbour, Scripture will give you the justification. But don't blame the various books. A book is just a book. If you don't like it, you can close it. Blame the reader. It's what's festering in his pointy little head that causes the death and destruction.He just wants an excuse. If someone has already filled him up with hate and spite from a kid, then that's what he'll bring to his religion.
 
#12
HectortheInspector said:
maxi_77 said:
I wonder why this one is getting all this publicity, there have been several similar statements by others before but the media seem to have ignored them. Often I think both the TV and the press are happy to stir up hatred in this sphere because it is giood for business.

Any way it is not just Islam that has numpties who think killing in the name of god is good, there is a christian on trial in the Hague at the moment for having many muslims killed in the name of his god. There are septic fundamentalists who think killing doctors and nurses at abortion clinics is good. The list can go on and on. The reality is that almost all religions can be used to legitemise the discrimination and murder of those who do not conform.
Probably because of his status. He represents a mainstream Pakistani Sunni school of thought, and that is the group that we are mostly fighting at the moment. He is also a respected thinker on Islamic law, rather than one of the self-taught enthusiasts who currently seem to be getting all the attention. As I have said before, the problem with being a self taught expert is that you don't know if your instructor is an idiot.

Imagine if, during the Crusades, a Catholic Cardinal had gone public with a statement that said that the whole death and violence thing was theologically unsound, and that Crusaders were at risk of hell and purgatory.
It might not have stopped the Crusades, but it might have seriously reduced the level of enthusiasm.

I agree with the rest of your comments. Religion is a hook you can hang many things on. You can justify anything with it. More accurately, you can hide anything under it. BUT it's not compulsory!

If you want to be a right b*****d to your neighbour, Scripture will give you the justification. But don't blame the various books. A book is just a book. If you don't like it, you can close it. Blame the reader. It's what's festering in his pointy little head that causes the death and destruction.He just wants an excuse. If someone has already filled him up with hate and spite from a kid, then that's what he'll bring to his religion.
Even so several of those I have heard manging to slip their condemnation of in particular suicide attacks have been UK community leaders in the mainstream of UK Islamic politics. The reality is in general the UK press and TV will give airtime to any Jihadi who pops up but consistantly faiol to give the same opportunity the the moderate majority, who all will say that jihadism is not in their name.

Taking it back to the crusades is a false arguement, morality was different then, slavery was not illegal, it was normal, child sex was encourtaged etc etc. The Jihadists compare more equably with the likes of Milosovich who claims his ethnic cleansing was a justfied holy war.
 
#15
muzzleflash said:
Don't mock it, this boy is a serious player on the Islamic scence. For him to have done this is major league.
I doubt very much the 'Majority' of arrsers are mocking this in all seriousness but you do have to expect a certain % of cynical views,

'if' the proper research is carried out then more in depth subject knowledge will allow others to understand the clout he has, but many have will have cynical views of which it their right :wink:

I agree Muzzleflash for him to speak out like the other cleric against the extremists is a positive & huge move forward in the right direction BUT to educate certain elements of the Islamic community away from the radicals will take more a lot more than this.
 
#16
J_D said:
The leader of a worldwide Muslim movement with thousands of followers in the UK is due to issue a fatwa - or Islamic religious ruling - condemning terrorism and warning suicide bombers that they are "destined for hell".
Pakistan-born Dr Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri, founder of the global Minhaj-ul-Quran movement, will make the formal UK proclamation of a fatwa, or religious edict, condemning terrorism and suicide bombing at a news conference in London.

The 600-page fatwa announces that "suicide bombings and attacks against civilian targets are not only condemned by Islam, but render the perpetrators totally out of the fold of Islam, in other words, to be unbelievers".
Article
That'll be him dead soon then.
 
#17
The BBC article seems to suggest ul-Qudri is from Sufi roots (though it is very ambiguous about it as per usual). If that's the case, we shouldn't start patting each on the back just yet. Sufis are widely regarded by Sunnis as Islam's 'weirdos' (much like us with the Mormons). I can't imagine most of the radical (read: mad) Sunni takfiris who support terrorism will really listen to him and will probably issue their own fatwa on him soon.

It's a very important, positive step but we have got a long way to go yet.
 
#18
maxi_77 said:
HectortheInspector said:
maxi_77 said:
I wonder why this one is getting all this publicity, there have been several similar statements by others before but the media seem to have ignored them. Often I think both the TV and the press are happy to stir up hatred in this sphere because it is giood for business.

Any way it is not just Islam that has numpties who think killing in the name of god is good, there is a christian on trial in the Hague at the moment for having many muslims killed in the name of his god. There are septic fundamentalists who think killing doctors and nurses at abortion clinics is good. The list can go on and on. The reality is that almost all religions can be used to legitemise the discrimination and murder of those who do not conform.
Probably because of his status. He represents a mainstream Pakistani Sunni school of thought, and that is the group that we are mostly fighting at the moment. He is also a respected thinker on Islamic law, rather than one of the self-taught enthusiasts who currently seem to be getting all the attention. As I have said before, the problem with being a self taught expert is that you don't know if your instructor is an idiot.

Imagine if, during the Crusades, a Catholic Cardinal had gone public with a statement that said that the whole death and violence thing was theologically unsound, and that Crusaders were at risk of hell and purgatory.
It might not have stopped the Crusades, but it might have seriously reduced the level of enthusiasm.

I agree with the rest of your comments. Religion is a hook you can hang many things on. You can justify anything with it. More accurately, you can hide anything under it. BUT it's not compulsory!

If you want to be a right b*****d to your neighbour, Scripture will give you the justification. But don't blame the various books. A book is just a book. If you don't like it, you can close it. Blame the reader. It's what's festering in his pointy little head that causes the death and destruction.He just wants an excuse. If someone has already filled him up with hate and spite from a kid, then that's what he'll bring to his religion.
Even so several of those I have heard manging to slip their condemnation of in particular suicide attacks have been UK community leaders in the mainstream of UK Islamic politics. The reality is in general the UK press and TV will give airtime to any Jihadi who pops up but consistantly faiol to give the same opportunity the the moderate majority, who all will say that jihadism is not in their name.

Taking it back to the crusades is a false arguement, morality was different then, slavery was not illegal, it was normal, child sex was encourtaged etc etc. The Jihadists compare more equably with the likes of Milosovich who claims his ethnic cleansing was a justfied holy war.
Well, in media land noisy jihadis make better copy than boring pacifists. The moderates can normally protest as much as they like, but they won't get the airtime if something more dramatic occurs.

Right- I'm going to get a bit boring here. My comment on the Crusades was deliberate. Although Islam doesn't do Popes, he does have a similar standing to a senior churchman. As far as I know, no Cardinal broke with the Church at the time to say that the Crusades were unjustified, but imagine what the results might have been if they had?

You are right in saying that our morality was different then. There's a very old saying- "The past is like a foreign country-They do things differently there." BUT- Religion does NOT equal Culture. The culture of medieval Europe was in many ways closer to the current culture of Afghanistan and Pakistan than we might like to think. Slavery and serfdom still exist in many Islamic cultures, as they did in Russia up into the 1800's, child marriage may still be common there, but was still quite common here until only a few hundred years ago, and if you want tribal and clan feuds, well, we are still doing that in Northern Ireland. If you want honour killings, look at Shakespeare. He's full of them.
My point is that if a Muslim cleric from a culture (which in Pakistan still has a distinct medieval slant) can break silence and condemn the violence, then that is (relatively speaking) more advanced thinking than we could expect from a Catholic churchman of the Crusades.

You are also correct in saying that the current breed of jihadists are more like the Milosovics of this world. They draw their politics not just from Islam but a toxic mix of nationalist/communist thinking that came out of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood just after the Great War, and into the Cold War period.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood
Milosovic was also growing up in the 1950's. In my view, what you see in the current Jihadi culture is the third or fourth generation fallout from the 30's dictatorships of Hitler and Stalin.
 

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