Muslim law reaches Britain

#1
Muslim law reaches Britain
30/11/06
By David Pilditch

SECRET courts imposing draconian Islamic justice are operating across Britain.

Last night politicians and religious leaders expressed outrage that sharia law is gaining an increasing foothold in our society.

The hardline Islamic law allows people to be stoned to death, beheaded or have their limbs amputated.

Critics insisted Labour was allowing a chaotic two-tier legal system to flourish in the name of political correctness.

And legal experts warned that it meant the authority of British justice was being undermined. Sharia law dates back to the 10th century.

In some countries women are stoned to death for adultery or giving birth out of wedlock and thieves can have both arms amputated.

In Saudi Arabia, murderers, rapists and drug traffickers are publicly beheaded with a sword. The Islamic law also deals in all aspects of daily life including marriage and divorce.

Yesterday experts insisted the Government had already allowed elements of sharia law to be introduced. The Treasury has brought in measures including interest-free loans and mortgages which comply with the Islamic law.

But it was also alleged unofficial criminal courts are meting out their own justice.

The scandal was outlined on BBC Radio 4’s Law in Action programme which uncovered evidence that Muslims are using their own laws here.

Youth worker Aydarus Yusuf, 29, told how he helped convene an unofficial court which uses Somalian law.

He said a hearing was held in Woolwich, South-east London, after a group of youths were arrested on suspicion of attacking another Somali teenager.

The victim’s family told police the matter would be settled out of court and the suspects were freed on bail.

The trial was conducted by community elders who ordered the attackers to pay compensation to the victim.

Mr Yusuf said: “The accused men admitted their guilt and apologised. All their uncles and fathers were there. They agreed compensation.”

He insisted he is more bound by the law of his country of birth than British justice, adding: “Somalis, wherever we live in the world, have our own law.”

The strength of sharia law was the strict punishments. Assailants were unlikely to re-offend as it would bring shame on their families, he said.

A Scotland Yard source said it was common for the police not to proceed with assault cases if victims did not press charges.

Dr Patrick Sookhdeo of the Institute for the Study of Islam and Christianity said: “Sharia courts now operate in most larger cities, with different sectarian and ethnic groups operating their own courts that cater to their specific needs according to their tradition.

“The Government has not been straight about this. It has it’s own sharia advisers and it has already introduced measures that are compliant with sharia law.

"Muslim communities are creating their own infrastructure based on sharia law. A Muslim community can now function within its own society on every level.”

The Tory spokesman for homeland security Patrick Mercer said: “This is complete nonsense. If you want to live under sharia law you should go to a country where it holds sway.”

Muslim and Christian groups were also outraged.

The Rev Keith Osmund-Smith, from the Heart of England Baptist Association, said: “It is almost like a stealthy change in the law and I’m very very much against it.”

Dr Mohammed Naseem, chairman of Birmingham Central Mosque, said: “Sharia law states that you respect the law of the land and therefore it cannot be enforced in this country.”

Faisal Aqtab Siddiqi, head of the Hijaz College Islamic University in Nuneaton, Warwickshire, said: “We no longer have the bobby on the beat who will give somebody a slap on the wrist.

“So I think there is a case to be made under which the elders sit together and reprimand people, trying to get them to change.”

Some academic lawyers welcome alternative legal systems.

Dr Prakesh Shah, law lecturer at Queen Mary, University of London, said: “Tribunals like the Somali court could be more effective than the formal legal system in maintaining social harmony.”

A spokeswoman for the Department for Communities and Local Government said: “Sharia law will not be introduced to the whole or any part of the UK. We are absolutely clear that existing British law applies to everyone.”
Source: Daily Express

How far do we have to go and how much do we have to surrender before this moraly bankrupt Government either quit of get a back bone
 
#3
He insisted he is more bound by the law of his country of birth than British justice, adding: “Somalis, wherever we live in the world, have our own law.”
This has got well beyond a joke. Deport him if he thinks Somalia has so much to offer.

Ex STAB
 
#4
I see nothing wrong in what the somalians did. It may sound ominous in that it is being called a "court" and "Law" but the simple fact is, the community had a meeting to sort out a problem in their area and the perpertartors were asked/told to pay compensation and did so.
The dividing line would have been if then perpetrator had refused to pay the compensation and further "illegal" (under british law) action had been taken by the community.
Likewise the amputation of limbs etc is obviosuly against UK law and so shouldnt be allowed. But I for one would love to see more involvement by the community in areas around me. Perhaps if we had this level of cohesiveness in our communities, there would not be such a "Yob" culture we have now.
I would also like to stress that by "community" I mean people in a particular area, regardless of race, creed or colour
 
#5
Uber hyped non story

live in this country, comply with our law of fcuk off!
 
#6
IT_GEEK said:
I see nothing wrong in what the somalians did. It may sound ominous in that it is being called a "court" and "Law" but the simple fact is, the community had a meeting to sort out a problem in their area and the perpertartors were asked/told to pay compensation and did so.
The dividing line would have been if then perpetrator had refused to pay the compensation and further "illegal" (under british law) action had been taken by the community.
Likewise the amputation of limbs etc is obviosuly against UK law and so shouldnt be allowed. But I for one would love to see more involvement by the community in areas around me. Perhaps if we had this level of cohesiveness in our communities, there would not be such a "Yob" culture we have now.
I would also like to stress that by "community" I mean people in a particular area, regardless of race, creed or colour
In this country the proper place to resolve disputes, especially those involving a breach of the Queen's peace, is in the Courts.

Cheers

Ex STAB
 
#7
Wow , another non-story pumped up.

Have there ever been unofficial 'Community courts' operated anywhere else in the UK I wonder, handing out something a bit more harsh than a fine and community service?

Sharia Law is NOT going to replace British law in the statute books, ever.

Even Dr. 'I'm more Islamic than I appear to be' Naseem says

“Sharia law states that you respect the law of the land and therefore it cannot be enforced in this country.”
Quelle suprise, it's the Daily Hate, with it's usual blend of nebulous statements and half truths pumped to look like fact

Dr Patrick Sookhdeo of the Institute for the Study of Islam and Christianity
With a name like that , he sounds like one of these Islamic moderate academics warning of the peril in our midst doesn't he?

Except he's not. In fact he is........ an Anglican Priest, who writes here http://www.isic-centre.org/ and connected to the Barnabas fund, which itself has some forthright views concerning the sky falling.

http://barnabasfund.org/

The only surprise to me, is the author of the piece isn't Melanie Phillips.

If the community wants to get medieval with some of the ratboys hereabouts, and the Somali community want to adminster 30 lashes behind closed doors to the bugger that broke into my house 2 years ago, then crack on.

It saves our overworked local Coppers a job.
 
#8
EX_STAB said:
In this country the proper place to resolve disputes, especially those involving a breach of the Queen's peace, is in the Courts.

Cheers

Ex STAB
Yes and we know how good our courts systems are at dealing with hooligans dont we. You try taking the group of yobs who constantly go around shouting abuse at pensioners and kicking bins over etc, to court. Its to minor and widespread to be dealt with by "law"

I read this as simply a community that has values it imposes on its members "IN ADDITION" to those of the state. In a very similar way that memebrship of private members clubs/Officers/Sgts Messes etc expect values of its memebrs, above those simply required by the "law".
As has been said, this has been hyped up on religious grounds. If it had been a elderly pensioner whos slapped a mugger and made him give his money back, we would have been cheering "yeah good for you". Instead add a bit of xenophobia to it and it becomes another racist story
 
#9
Fair comment, BUT where are the checks and balances on this system? Who decides whats fair? I have the same issues with this as I do with the vigilante attacks in the past where innocent people have been mistakenly targetted.
Whilst it may well save the local copper a bit of time it is the coppers job to sort it.

I suspect the reality is that if we had an effective police force and criminal justice system there would be no need for parallel systems such as this could become.
 
#10
PartTimePongo said:
Wow , another non-story pumped up.

Have there ever been unofficial 'Community courts' operated anywhere else in the UK I wonder, handing out something a bit more harsh than a fine and community service?

Sharia Law is NOT going to replace British law in the statute books, ever.

Even Dr. 'I'm more Islamic than I appear to be' Naseem says

“Sharia law states that you respect the law of the land and therefore it cannot be enforced in this country.”
Quelle suprise, it's the Daily Hate, with it's usual blend of nebulous statements and half truths pumped to look like fact

Dr Patrick Sookhdeo of the Institute for the Study of Islam and Christianity
With a name like that , he sounds like one of these Islamic moderate academics warning of the peril in our midst doesn't he?

Except he's not. In fact he is........ an Anglican Priest, who writes here http://www.isic-centre.org/ and connected to the Barnabas fund, which itself has some forthright views concerning the sky falling.

http://barnabasfund.org/

The only surprise to me, is the author of the piece isn't Melanie Phillips.

If the community wants to get medieval with some of the ratboys hereabouts, and the Somali community want to adminster 30 lashes behind closed doors to the bugger that broke into my house 2 years ago, then crack on

It saves our overworked local Coppers a job.
Doesn't she write for the Mail not the Express
 
#11
Semmy said:
Fair comment, BUT where are the checks and balances on this system? Who decides whats fair? I have the same issues with this as I do with the vigilante attacks in the past where innocent people have been mistakenly targetted.
Whilst it may well save the local copper a bit of time it is the coppers job to sort it.

I suspect the reality is that if we had an effective police force and criminal justice system there would be no need for parallel systems such as this could become.
I agree totally with the sentiments about the police and justice system. Also I can see their might be probelms with the checks and balances, but at the end of the day, the underlying fairness would be that these communites cannot "legally" enforce their will. If the person receiveing the punishments decides not to go along with it, then there would be nothing the community could do about it unfortunatly. But is is a testament to the strength of the community that loosing of "respect" is often enough to keep youngsters in line.
 
#12
Doesn't she write for the Mail not the Express
She does. My point was, this is the sort of thing I'd normally expect to see her name attached to.
 
#13
Community action, the neighbourhood taking care of its own problems, just "policing" our own turf. Call it what you will it is still vigilante actions.

Remember what happend the last time the "community" decided to take care of a local problem.?

A pediatrician gets his house smashed up.

Where is the difference between this bunch of village elders handing down punishment and Tony Martin?
 
#14
True, but if I remember rightly, the majority of people seemed to support Tony Martin!
 
#15
Steven said:
Where is the difference between this bunch of village elders handing down punishment and Tony Martin?
This "bunch iof village elders" ordered someone to pay compensation, and he did. The order was not legally enforcable, and even giving the order was not against the law. What Tony Martin did, was illegal. I refer you to my previous post about what constitutes "fair". If the said elders had gone after the guys with machettes if he hadnt paid, then I would not be on their side any longer.
 
#16
Steven said:
Where is the difference between this bunch of village elders handing down punishment and Tony Martin?
The punishment given did not break the law, that is the difference.

I think this is a non-story by the Daily Hate causing a big fuss over nothing.

It would be quite a different story if the punishment handed out broke the law, ie chopping off of their hands. That would make those dealing out the punishment guilty of a crime under English criminal law.

If you take out the muslim bit and Sharia law and put this into context it becomes such a different story. I will give you 2 examples.

When I was in High School I was your typical rebellious teen. Whenever I got into trouble my parents would be called into school and have a meeting with the headmaster and some other teachers. Between them they would decide on my punishment, usually I would be grounded for a while and stopped from seeing certain friends.

When I was an undergraduate I was a student member of the University disciplinary panel. I sat on different cases which ranged from people committing plagerism to criminal assault.

The boy who was guilty of the assault on another student was also tried in the criminal court and found guilty. The university still held their own panel and handed out another punishment. The panel consisted of lecturers from the different dept's involved plus one from law, a member of student services, somebody high up in the university and 2 student members.

This isn't very different as to what happens at their community trials. The daily hate have blown this way out of proportion. In fact the title of this thread is also misleading. There is not Muslim law in this country, what happened has no basis in our law. The people convicted by the kangeroo court are under no obligation under English law to attend the trial or to accept the punishment. The punishment did not break the law.
 
#17
PartTimePongo said:
If the community wants to get medieval with some of the ratboys hereabouts, and the Somali community want to adminster 30 lashes behind closed doors to the bugger that broke into my house 2 years ago, then crack on.

It saves our overworked local Coppers a job.
PTP I agree up to a point. The trouble is once you allow things to start happening behind closed doors and turn a blind eye to them you start to set a president which others will use to justify continued usage of sharia law. This you might think is not a problem, but we have, in this country, a fair and safe legal system. If you want to turn a blind eye to unofficial sharia courts meeting out justice in this coutry then you must prepare yourself that one day one of your children may come home having received 30 lashes or worse because he or she has been wrongly accused and sentenced by one of these courts. You may think this to be slightly alarmist and I'll admit that there was a time when I would have thought the same but you only need to think about what has been happening in the cases of honour killings in this country to realise that it does not take long for the rot to set in.
 
#18
IT_GEEK said:
Steven said:
Where is the difference between this bunch of village elders handing down punishment and Tony Martin?
This "bunch iof village elders" ordered someone to pay compensation, and he did. The order was not legally enforcable, and even giving the order was not against the law. What Tony Martin did, was illegal. I refer you to my previous post about what constitutes "fair". If the said elders had gone after the guys with machettes if he hadnt paid, then I would not be on their side any longer.

So you think that if these guys had not paid the fine then those that fixed the punishment would have just said "Ok fine don't bother then"?

There has to have been some enforcement behind it. Maybe it was just the strong feeling on social responsibilty the guilty parties felt or purely a voluntary thing perhaps.

If you think that there was no coercement behind the punishment then you are deluding yourself.

There is zero difference between the two situations in the eyes of UK law.

Both are illegal which is not the same as things being "fair".
 
#19
The Sharia court may have some virtue with regard to the culprit paying compensation to the victim, but doesn't (while staying within UK law) have the power to hand out custodial sentences.

So if a bloke kicks somebody's headlights in and he's made to pay for the cost of the damage plus a bit extra to cover inconvenience and maybe a bit more as an act of contrition, that's fair enough.

If, however, he makes a habit of stabbing people (i.e. menace to the general public) or smashes up bus shelters (public property), what happens then? In the first instance, he should be taken off the streets(beyond the scope of what a Sharia court can legally get away with). In the second instance, would the Sharia court actually bother (setting a standard that non-muslim property can be defaced with impunity)?

Better to face a British court for the crime, then leave the option open for the Sharia court to deal with "actions bringing the community into disrepute" if they so wish, though the latter wouldn't be legally enforcable and would rely on the culprit being shamed.

A purely Sharia-court solution would have fantastic effects on the statistics for reported crime, though!
 
#20
Bullet Sponge said:
PartTimePongo said:
If the community wants to get medieval with some of the ratboys hereabouts, and the Somali community want to adminster 30 lashes behind closed doors to the bugger that broke into my house 2 years ago, then crack on.

It saves our overworked local Coppers a job.
PTP I agree up to a point. The trouble is once you allow things to start happening behind closed doors and turn a blind eye to them you start to set a president which others will use to justify continued usage of sharia law. This you might think is not a problem, We have, in this country, a fair and safe legal system. If you we want to turn a blind eye to unofficial sharia courts meeting out justice in this coutry then you must prepare yourself that one day one of your children may come home having received 30 lashes or worse because he or she has been wrongly accused and sentenced by one of these courts. You may think this to be slightly alarmist and I'll admit that there was a time when I would have thought the same but you only need to think about what has been happening in the cases of honour killings in this country to realise that it does not take long for the rot to set in.
The point you are missing is in reality this country has had many examples of such community enforcement of the law over many years, some more formal than others. This would appear to be reasonably recorded, both victim and perpetrator agree, the punishment seems in general to involve some compensation to the victim (something many victims complain about in 'normal' justice) and it is highly likey that the perpetrators will not offend again again a better outcome than conventional justice. Equally it is probably quick, it cost society in general nothing, another plus point, and if it wasn't for the anti islamic little england brigade it could be done more openly and perhaps provide a rout to more generl use for community justice for all.

Peter
 

Latest Threads