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  1. Latest doctrinal update from the centre of the AMS universe ... apparently the raison d'etre of MSOs is to keep MOs supplied with tea and mars bars ... try suggesting that in your local med regt mess and let me know if you survive longer than 3 millisecs.
  2. The raison d'etre of MSOs is to help MOs out with those tricky situations that puzzle them so much:

    "Come on, you can do it. That's it, both hands. Look, it's not that hard - do I have to draw you a map? Well done! See I told you, finding your arrse with both hands IS possible. Well done indeed. Now, back to your med centre and stop trying to be a soldier."

  3. Ventress

    Ventress LE Moderator

    Probably why the AMS can only commission 3 RAMC warrant Officers for 20 odd position, which they fill from the great unwashed RLC, AGC and REME, oh and not forgetting the Infantry who have a marverlous grasp of the our doctrine and ways! Was it on a TESSEX
    I heard " FU&^%ing Medics!!".
  4. Does the AMS have any doctrine with regards MSOs???

    According to the Chief Instructor at DMSTC they don't!!!

    ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

    Laughed? I nearly cried. Assuming that is you're joking?

    I thought a PQO attached to my unit was joking when as a Platoon Commander he turned up to a range I was running I TRIED (???)  to use a pistol. Then of course there was the state of his webbing - if you could call it that?

    The main reason for MSOs in the RAMC is to prevent PQOs making a complete f**k up of everything they try to do which isn't related to thier professional qualification!! ;)
  5. Ventress

    Ventress LE Moderator

    Unfortunately, we have to pander to the PQO's as they are a resource we cannot squander, as a Consultant Surgeon, they can come to work dressed as Noddy and nothing would be said! An officer, on a Range I was running was asked to leave as he gave me the fear, said "Well it doesnt matter I am on £200 a day, who want me to be soldier?" Wise words mate!
  6. Yes, but they're still commissioned officers and as such they should comply with the standards and attitudes that are expected.

    How can you fairly reprimand a soldier for tardyness or the state of his uniform when an RMO (who can be a Lt Col) turns up looking like S**T with a beret that could be used on a yatch!!
  7. Ventress

    Ventress LE Moderator

    Fully agree, but these people are not 'soldiers' they are professionals the Army requires. I have seen Medical Consultants dressed in 3 Orders of Dress but that's the way it is!- You dont mess with them!

    Next month they will be saving soldiers lives!
  8. Then again I have met several cav officers who seem to get the orders of dress mixed up but isnt that officer individuality!! ;)

    Also having completed a recent EOC course I was delighted to hear the CI tell us that we were just there to enable the PQOs to do their jobs and that we should be priveleged to be allowed to lick their boots........... Hmm :mad:
  9. My issue is not with their professional ability but the rank they expect to wear.

    Remember, these people commission as Captains.

    If they wish to play by their own rules then why doesn't the MOD reintroduce the old titles. E.g. Surgeon Captain etc.
  10. The other bon mot from the place they call Keogh ... MSOs should not expect to command.  Just what  troopies need to hear.
  11. Witch?Doctor

    What was the context of the comment than MSO's should not expect to command?  Was it a general comment about being in charge of soldiers or specifically about unit command?  If it were the latter I would say fair comment. None of us should expect to command a unit.  We should prove that we are up to it irrespective of cap-badge.  However, I do take the point.  Far too often we appoint individuals to command who have been given the nod on the basis that they come from a particular cap-badge or profession.
  12. Ventress

    Ventress LE Moderator

    If a MSO is good enough to command a Medical Unit, then they should. There are some superb MSO's cutting about, Adjts and 2ICs (Honest, they are excellent!)- Some can't see past their boss's arrse- We all know the good ones, but they seem to be side stepped around command and we dont get the benefit of their experience or knowledge. One springs too mind I cannot name, but I would have followed him to the mouth of Hell, unlike 90% of them, I wouldn't follow to the NAAFI.
  13. Arthur - the ranks of 'Surgeon Captain' etc still exist in the Royal Navy.

    Regarding the issue of MSOs in command, I heard about that interesting talk given to the recent EOC. My understanding is that the MSOs were told that very few of them would make full Colonel or beyond.

    The response to that has to be - obviously! You cannot and should not compare an MSO's career path and rank structure with that of a PQO. It’s true that few newly commissioned MSOs will make full Colonel…but a lot more will than a newly commissioned group of infantry officers! I can count one Brigadier and four full Colonels (MSO) off the top of my head, and I’m sure that there are more. The point is that MSOs require proper recommendations, available jobs, and time to reach Col and above. The same is true of MSOs in command appointments, of which there have been plenty.

    Doctors, on the other hand, are still on a form of time based promotion, and so only require time (although they can promote earlier with proper recommendations and the correct job to move into). CTOS has removed the link between pay and rank, and there was at first a plan to cap the upper rank of doctors at Major or Lt Col unless they went down the Command & Staff route. Following the revelation that doctors quite like high ranks, and it’s good for their morale (among other reasons), it was decided to leave a form of time promotion in place. The logic partly goes that since it’s irrelevant to pay (and therefore costs), it represents a cheap way of maintaining morale at a time of heavy consultant shortages.

    HOWEVER, it has been questioned by more than one study (including the independent, outside consultant, who was responsible for MMRR) why we allow members of a professional group who are very undermanned to ‘waste’ their skills in Command & Staff jobs when that’s what the MSO cadre exists for! One problem that will stop the MSO cadre potentially taking advantage of this, is the serious under manning that exists there too! There are huge gaps at senior Captain, Major and Lt Col levels. Most senior Capts are currently acting Majors, and senior Majors are acting Lt Cols. That’s how the ‘Grey Mafia’ are managing to slide in and fill a disproportionate number of Staff jobs.
  14. Are the 'QA mafia' over-represented in staff appointments.  If so why?  Are they performing well in these jobs, if not why not?  Do any of these people have the necessary staff training to do these jobs?  What level are they at, Grade 3, 2 or 1?  Are they command or staf appointments?  Do QA's command, if not why not?

    Reference the MMRR question "why do we allow these highly skilled clinical professions to undertake command and staff work?"  I know that they are in one case 15 volumes long and in the other case 18 volumes long but perhaps they should read the official histories of the medical services in WW1 and WW2 and why we had the medical disasters of the 19th century.  I know we are a hundred yeas on but the basic logic holds good.  You do need a good smattering of these people in the medical C&S chain, history more than demonstartes this if you are preared to take a little time for research.  

    Can I suggest that one of the AMS’s real weaknesses is how few MSO’s have any healthcare background?  This is not a criticism of MSO’s as such, but a failure by the AMS to attract recruit and train the right people for this cadre.  Far more MSO’s should be given the opportunity to train as medical administrators if they wish (I know many who do), and the current YO’s course (if you can call it that) has to be beefed up.  What about a modular Institute of Health Service Managers in the junior years and a requirement to do Health Management as the Modular MA/MSc required under the ROCC recommendations?  You have a shed load of (admitadly nurse) academics working in the Universities of Portsmouth and Birmingham offering a part time Degree in Military Nursing.  I’m sure that between them, the university, the AGC(ETS) it could be possible to put together a part-time degree in military medical administration?  Between the three services aren’t there something like 400 MSO slots, that must be enough to make such a course worthwhile?

    MSO’s be more proactive!
  15. Ventress

    Ventress LE Moderator

    I agree to a point, you just have to see how many the AMS commission every year from the AMs against the rest of the Army- three this year! The rest coming from the Inf, AGC and RLC being in the majority.